question about outputs of pups?

[Benjy_26]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

Look at the SD tone chart. The Distortion Trembucker has a DC Resistance of 21.3K yet the bars show it has a little LESS output than the Invader which is 16.8K....BOTH with a ceramic magnet.

The Invader has 3 Ceramic mags, not one, like the Distortion trembucker.

Every element in how a pickup is built and wired will affect the tone and output.

While I like the idea of millivolt measurements, I think that part Dimarzio's reasoning for publishing them is a marketing scheme. Have you ever read their product descriptions? On their Fast Track 1, they state that it's 3 times louder than a stock single coil.


What do they consider stock? Stock on what?

Dimarzio does some cool things, but in the end, they don't get much of my business. :burnout:

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

and the mv thing is TOTALLY worthless. What guage of strings did the guy have? What guage pick? How hard did he hit the strings? Exactly how many millimeters are the pickups set from the strings?

That stuff isn't necessary to know at all.

The mV is basically the same scale you're talking about.....only in an exact quantitative number form.......not a bar graph(who knows where those numbers for that bar came from anyway.

This isn't rocket science.

Exactly how you figured out how hot those Duncans are in relationship to each other is how I figured out how the Dimarzios were only without having to try them or guess first.

You say that the Demon was your "benchmark" well the Super Distortion was mine.....at 425 mV. Difference was, I didn't have to try another pickup to see if it was hotter or cooler....I already knew the PAF Pro was a good bit cooler at around 300mV and a Humbucker From Hell would be even cooler than at 226mV....just like you know that a person that is 5'5" is shorter than someone that's 6'5".

The only disadvantage of mV is that Dimarzio is the only company that uses them so they do not help or apply to other pickups. This is just like how EMG is the only company that uses those quick connect clips....just because no other company uses them does not make them any less useful.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

That comparison is not accurate because the tech would have had to have the same exact pluck, string height, guitar...etc that Dimarzio did when they did their tests for a valid comparison...highly unlikely IMO.

So, factors such as picking force and string height are important, but string and pick guage are not? :wrf:

Sorry, but that makes NO sense at all.

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

The Invader has 3 Ceramic mags, not one, like the Distortion trembucker.

Every element in how a pickup is built and wired will affect the tone and output.

This is exactly what I've been saying....DC resistance is worthless because you don't know all that stuff. mV takes all that stuff right into account.....I don't believe SD says anywhere even that the Invader has 3 mags....and the shape would matter too if you were going to try to judge by some method other than mV.

While I like the idea of millivolt measurements, I think that part Dimarzio's reasoning for publishing them is a marketing scheme. Have you ever read their product descriptions? On their Fast Track 1, they state that it's 3 times louder than a stock single coil.


What do they consider stock? Stock on what?

Dimarzio does some cool things, but in the end, they don't get much of my business. :burnout:

And I think you're talking about the Fast Track 2....at 321 mV Dimarzio says it has about "three times the output of an average single-coil".

Well if you take the Class of '55 pickup which is a true single coil pickup taken off the "Standard Strat" pickup section off of their website it's about 110mV which is exactly what Dimarzio says....3 times the output of an average single coil.

Why is that a scheme??? They're telling it exactly like it is and giving you an almost exact quantitative measurement to help you really get to the meat of matching pickups.

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

So, factors such as picking force and string height are important, but string and pick guage are not? :wrf:

Sorry, but that makes NO sense at all.

It makes complete sense. They all are only factors if YOU are the one doing all the tests to keep things consistent when getting the measurements. They are numbers that are relative to each other.


If Dimarzio says the Super D is 425mV that doesn't mean that it's going to be 425 in every guitar...that's not what it's used for. What it does mean is that it's going to be 85mV less than an X2N in every guitar.


That's where it's useful....you know exactly how much more or less a pickup is going to be compared to another one....it's simple algebra. You know one or two of something and are looking for the third.

 

[Davey]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

ah-ha.. now, not taking picking force into consideration, this is where it's making some sense.

lets get this right... you need the mV output only as a number to compare other pups to? how they measure in coleration to eachother. k.. now i get why you'd 'need' mV output. totaly diferent than how i looked at it.


btw, i never said DC resistance gives the output numbers, just that it indicates that the pup is hotter, even though there are lots of turns outside of the magnetic field (as in the distortion trembucker case). then taking the magnet type, it shows the final character of the pup. something you cant see from mV numbers

i'm a person that really DOESNT need mV outputs to match a bucker. if it sounds like i want, i dont give a **** how high or low it's output is. if you absolutely need mV output to match two pups together, more power to you.

i'm out of this one

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

I think we had a miscommunication above

By calling it worthless, I meant it's a worthless system for anyone but the manufacturer to use. Also, the only way the mv system would work is if all testing for all manufacturers was done by the same person, or by machine.

I still think mv is a stupid way to show output. 1-10 on a "Loudness" scale (or something along those lines) would be far more useful. Say I've never tried DiMarzio products. What the hell does 315 mv mean? Not to mention how useless the DiMarzio soundclips are.

To show that I'm not just bashing DiMarzio, I find the bars that represent Duncan's output level to be nearly as useless.

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

I think we had a miscommunication above

By calling it worthless, I meant it's a worthless system for anyone but the manufacturer to use. Also, the only way the mv system would work is if all testing for all manufacturers was done by the same person, or by machine.

Well it's worthless when trying to compare Duncans and Dimarzios...but then again so is everything else when figuring output. But the mV does work as far as Dimarzios go...which doesn't do many on this board good since many are not Dimarzio users...but if you use Dimarzios you can easily tell how the outputs are for their pickups amongst each other.


What the industry needs is a standardized method of figuring out mV so that you CAN go from manufacturer to manufacturer and have accuracy. What we have now would be like if you went to two different gas stations and they measured volumes of gas by two completely different methods.

 

[rspst14]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

What it does mean is that it's going to be 85mV less than an X2N in every guitar.

Not necessarily. There is always some difference between two pickups, even two pickups of the same model. Pull five of the same pickup model off the assembly line and pop them into a guitar with everything being the same. Those pickups with a target output of 300 mV can measure 300,320, 280, 275, and 325. Sure, it will be close, but not the same. You can't say that two pickups will always have 85 mV of difference in output in every guitar, there are just too many factors involved. In the same guitar, with every single possible factor being 100% the same, the output between the two pickups you mention will be roughly 85 mV, but there will be a +- tolerance that could be anywhere from 5-25%.

This may be splitting hairs, but it's important to remember that everything affects everything.

Ryan

 

[Davey]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

something strikes me as odd though..

you look at the mV output figures as to which pups would work best together output vise. do you rule others out completely?

like getting a X2N for the bridge, wouldnt a paf output be too much of a volume drop then? or do you go and sacrifice the tone of the bridge and lower it so the output matches? and vice versa?

i really think thats stupid. (ruling other pups cos of output) you should go for what suits your tone better and not just because the output matches (if it does, even better)

i really couldnt care less for mV outputs.. or any other output bar for that matter. standarising one method is stupid as you shouldnt be chosing by output, but what works for your tone and feel.

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

This is exactly what I've been saying....DC resistance is worthless because you don't know all that stuff. mV takes all that stuff right into account.....I don't believe SD says anywhere even that the Invader has 3 mags....and the shape would matter too if you were going to try to judge by some method other than mV.

How do mV measurements take into account mag composition and shape? Please explain. :question:

And I think you're talking about the Fast Track 2....at 321 mV Dimarzio says it has about "three times the output of an average single-coil".

Well if you take the Class of '55 pickup which is a true single coil pickup taken off the "Standard Strat" pickup section off of their website it's about 110mV which is exactly what Dimarzio says....3 times the output of an average single coil.

Why is that a scheme??? They're telling it exactly like it is and giving you an almost exact quantitative measurement to help you really get to the meat of matching pickups.

I have the catalog. It says "three times the output of a stock single, though I admit, I'm not sure whether it's the FS 1 or 2.

My strat didn't come with Class of '55 pickups, and I've yet to meet some one whose strat has come this way new. Also, what data do you have that backs up your conclusion that the Class of 55 is an average single. If we go strictly by sales, I'd imagine that the average single would be steel poled with ceramic mags underneath (like the MIM strats).


How is it a scheme? Dimarzio is selling you the sizzle, not the steak. just like someone at Cicrcuit City or Best Buy gets you excited about a digital cam by telling you how many mega pixels it has, or how long the battery lasts.

Bottom line, mV measures are a good idea, but due to the incositencies and abundance of variables, they can't be implemented with any sort of reliability.

 

[Forbes]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

Duncan Distortion - "way hotter than the Demon, not as hot as an EMG 81."

JB - "hotter than the Demon, not as hot as the Distortion."

Invader - "hotter than the EMG 81, but not by much."

DMZ Evo - "hotter than the JB, not as hot as the Distortion."

DMZ Air Norton - "Similar to the JB."

DMZ Super Distortion - "hotter than the Evo, not as hot as the (Duncan) Distortion."

Custom Custom - "hotter than the Demon, not as hot as the JB."

Custom - "Just under the JB."

Now THAT is something i can understand, why don't they stick something like this on the Duncan Website, for instant comparisons, there must be alot of people who have one pickup and want 'something a little less hot' or 'something a tinge hotter'.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

Now THAT is something i can understand, why don't they stick something like this on the Duncan Website, for instant comparisons, there must be alot of people who have one pickup and want 'something a little less hot' or 'something a tinge hotter'.

I think it would be great, and probably the most useful of all methods of showing output.

For people who have never used a Duncan product, you could say "Go play an Ibanez guitar with a Powersound pickup. That's an output level of 5. A '59 would be a 5.5, and a JB would be an 8." or something like that.

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

Not necessarily. There is always some difference between two pickups, even two pickups of the same model. Pull five of the same pickup model off the assembly line and pop them into a guitar with everything being the same. Those pickups with a target output of 300 mV can measure 300,320, 280, 275, and 325. Sure, it will be close, but not the same. You can't say that two pickups will always have 85 mV of difference in output in every guitar, there are just too many factors involved. In the same guitar, with every single possible factor being 100% the same, the output between the two pickups you mention will be roughly 85 mV, but there will be a +- tolerance that could be anywhere from 5-25%.

This may be splitting hairs, but it's important to remember that everything affects everything.

Ryan

I guess that would depend on the manufacturer though. I don't know what the normal tolerances are for pickups, you'd think they'd be fairly tight to keep consistency because you're not affecting just output with inconsistencies.....you're affecting tone too.

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

something strikes me as odd though..

you look at the mV output figures as to which pups would work best together output vise. do you rule others out completely?

like getting a X2N for the bridge, wouldnt a paf output be too much of a volume drop then? or do you go and sacrifice the tone of the bridge and lower it so the output matches? and vice versa?

i really think thats stupid. .

I use highly mismatched outputs all the time in guitars....but somebody might not want to....by having mV, at least you know how much of a mismatch you may or may not be getting....it's another factor in the ultimate tone answer that we all seek. At least they won't have to guess if they have a mismatch or not.

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

How do mV measurements take into account mag composition and shape? Please explain. :question:

Because regardless of what magnet size/type/shape you put in there amongst other things, mV gives you the output measurement of the pickup.

Take for example a Steve's Special which has 12 polepieces and a ceramic mag and is 390mV on Dimarzios scale. Swap out the magnet to an A5 and change one set of poles to a bar but keep the other stuff the same on the pickup and you got a Megadrive which is about 350mV I think according to Dimarzio. Like we might have been able to assume, the pickup is cooler but we know by exactly how much...we can put a quantity to it...no guessing.

The point is it doesn't matter what magnet is in there...if the manufacturer keeps their setup the same, the changes in the pickup will reflect onto the mV values as I just showed. This is a bit of work by the manufacturer but it makes things alot easier for the consumer.

Take for instance cars.....if I'm buying a Mustang or any car for that matter I want to know how much horsepower it has amongst other things. Don't just tell me it's fast or it's slow or it might be faster than a Camaro but not sure, etc.

This is really no different....although unfortunately pickup manufacturers have not decided to embrace one unit of output measurement like the auto industry has.

I have the catalog. It says "three times the output of a stock single, though I admit, I'm not sure whether it's the FS 1 or 2.

My strat didn't come with Class of '55 pickups, and I've yet to meet some one whose strat has come this way new. Also, what data do you have that backs up your conclusion that the Class of 55 is an average single. If we go strictly by sales, I'd imagine that the average single would be steel poled with ceramic mags underneath (like the MIM strats).

I don't know what catalog you have but directly from the Dimarzio website they say for the FS2:

"It's got three times the output of an average single-coil, with a huge mid-range punch"

They probably took a few regular strat pickups including their own and took measurements on them in mV, average them, and then made that statement.

They have pickups with less and more output available so what incentive do they have to BS or lie??

How is it a scheme? Dimarzio is selling you the sizzle, not the steak. just like someone at Cicrcuit City or Best Buy gets you excited about a digital cam by telling you how many mega pixels it has, or how long the battery lasts.

How are they getting you excited about that statement?? They list many other features about the pickup too that somebody might like or dislike....you act as if they're trying to rip you off.

What incentive do they have to lie about the output of that pickup??

Bottom line, mV measures are a good idea, but due to the incositencies and abundance of variables, they can't be implemented with any sort of reliability.

Well, the bottom line is they are a good idea and they work perfectly. There are no inconsistencies if the measurement is taken correctly outside of most likely small manufacturing tolerances....just like measuring horsepower or anything else.

The only problem is that it's not a standard amongst the industry yet...nobody has agreed on a uniform method of taking the measurments.

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

For people who have never used a Duncan product, you could say "Go play an Ibanez guitar with a Powersound pickup. That's an output level of 5. A '59 would be a 5.5, and a JB would be an 8." or something like that.

Where is that "5" for the powersound coming from though?? How would you determine that?? What form of measurement?

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

Because regardless of what magnet size/type/shape you put in there amongst other things, mV gives you the output measurement of the pickup.

Take for example a Steve's Special which has 12 polepieces and a ceramic mag and is 390mV on Dimarzios scale. Swap out the magnet to an A5 and change one set of poles to a bar but keep the other stuff the same on the pickup and you got a Megadrive which is about 350mV I think according to Dimarzio. Like we might have been able to assume, the pickup is cooler but we know by exactly how much...we can put a quantity to it...no guessing.

The point is it doesn't matter what magnet is in there...if the manufacturer keeps their setup the same, the changes in the pickup will reflect onto the mV values as I just showed. This is a bit of work by the manufacturer but it makes things alot easier for the consumer.

Take for instance cars.....if I'm buying a Mustang or any car for that matter I want to know how much horsepower it has amongst other things. Don't just tell me it's fast or it's slow or it might be faster than a Camaro but not sure, etc.

This is really no different....although unfortunately pickup manufacturers have not decided to embrace one unit of output measurement like the auto industry has.



I don't know what catalog you have but directly from the Dimarzio website they say for the FS2:

"It's got three times the output of an average single-coil, with a huge mid-range punch"

They probably took a few regular strat pickups including their own and took measurements on them in mV, average them, and then made that statement.

They have pickups with less and more output available so what incentive do they have to BS or lie??



How are they getting you excited about that statement?? They list many other features about the pickup too that somebody might like or dislike....you act as if they're trying to rip you off.

What incentive do they have to lie about the output of that pickup??




Well, the bottom line is they are a good idea and they work perfectly. There are no inconsistencies if the measurement is taken correctly outside of most likely small manufacturing tolerances....just like measuring horsepower or anything else.

The only problem is that it's not a standard amongst the industry yet...nobody has agreed on a uniform method of taking the measurments.

OK, the Steve's Special and Megadrive are two very different pickups. You don't turn a Steve's Special into a Mega Drive simply by changing the magnet. That's like saying: "If I take a Ford GT, change the engine to the front, take off the supercharger, and add some tacky bodywork, I can get a Mustang."

also, In your previous post, you said that mV measurements take into account the magnet, now you're saying that the magnet doesn't matter. How does that work?

As far as car manufacturers' horsepower ratings go, it also seems like a reasonable system, unless you ask Mazda and Hyundai how many settlement checks they've written for selling cars with less horsepower than advertised. :smack:

The only incentive that Dimarzio has to BS is money. They're in business to make money, keeping us happy is only a secondary concern. The only Dimarzio Catalog that I have is the one Dimarzio sent me in 2001.

As far as their statements are concerned, I'm not excited about them. It's called marketing. "Sell the sizzle, not the steak". How does "3 times the output and a big midrange hump" sound to a kid with a stock Squire looking for a replacement pickup? for the gear geeks out there, they throw out mV measurements and allegations that an Airbucker sounds just like an Alnico II loaded pickup, but with " a much more stable magnet than the vintage PAF's". :smack:




Don't even get me started on the double cream issue. :smoker:

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

Where is that "5" for the powersound coming from though?? How would you determine that?? What form of measurement?

That's a good question to ask Dimarzio about their mV measurements. What composition and guage of strings were used? What pick guage and composition? What was the height of the pickup from the strings? What guage was the guitar cable and leads used to wire in the pickup? What were the environmental conditions when testing? How much force was applied when picking the string? What kind of measuring device was used?

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

Where is that "5" for the powersound coming from though?? How would you determine that?? What form of measurement?

It's coming from my "mvarejustasmeaninglesstoguitaristsometer."

It's a random number I picked, merely to give people an easily established starting point. Pretty much anybody could get to a local shop and play a guitar with a Powersound pickup. They would then have a basis for comparison. When they read that the PS is a 5, and JB is an 8, they'll realize, "The JB must be louder." It could have been 0, and the JB 3.

It's not intended to be exact, merely to give some idea of the volume level. I bet it would be more meaningful to most guitarists than "450 mv."