I got a peavy valveking vk100 that's collecting dust because it's too damn loud. I was looking into attenuators but the 100 watt ones are all pretty pricey. Could I get a 50 watt attenuator and pull out the two outside tubes out of my amp? I have no experience with tube amp repairs and stuff like that so I'm not sure if it's as simple as pulling out the tubes. I wouldn't need to re bias the amp for just pulling tubes out and putting them back in, right?
Questions on an attenuator?
- Thread starter Mendozer
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Kamanda~SD
New member
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
I think technically that would work, however, when you pull a pair of tubes the impedance (IIRC - someone chime in here) halves.
IMO your better off getting a properly sized attenuator form the start. The Weber MASS Lite is ~$200 USD. I found mine much cheaper used.
I think technically that would work, however, when you pull a pair of tubes the impedance (IIRC - someone chime in here) halves.
IMO your better off getting a properly sized attenuator form the start. The Weber MASS Lite is ~$200 USD. I found mine much cheaper used.
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
IMHO that's not a good idea for one simple reason: you don't use a 50w attenuator with a 50w amp, unless you only want to shave a few db's off your volume. There's a lot of info out there (I suggest Ted Weber's site) but, as a general rule of thumb, you want to use an attenuator that's twice the wattage of your amp, since your amp's wattage is rated before it clips. Therefore, pushing your amp into distortion means it puts out more than its rate wattage (100W in you case) and would kill the attenuator and then it's OT.
If you want to pull two tubes you can, just make sure that you correct for the impedance change as Kamanda pointed and buy a 100W attenuator.
However, again MHO, if you're trying to tame a 100W for home use or just REALLY lower its volume, you're much better off selling it and buying something with a much lower wattage.
IMHO that's not a good idea for one simple reason: you don't use a 50w attenuator with a 50w amp, unless you only want to shave a few db's off your volume. There's a lot of info out there (I suggest Ted Weber's site) but, as a general rule of thumb, you want to use an attenuator that's twice the wattage of your amp, since your amp's wattage is rated before it clips. Therefore, pushing your amp into distortion means it puts out more than its rate wattage (100W in you case) and would kill the attenuator and then it's OT.
If you want to pull two tubes you can, just make sure that you correct for the impedance change as Kamanda pointed and buy a 100W attenuator.
However, again MHO, if you're trying to tame a 100W for home use or just REALLY lower its volume, you're much better off selling it and buying something with a much lower wattage.
dystrust
Well-known member
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
Attenuators are good for taking the edge off of an amp; they can't bring a 100W head down to bedroom level and still sound decent. For example I have a 100W Marshall Jubilee, and I occasionally use it with a THD Hot Plate. The -4db setting on the Hot Plate sounds pretty good; it's not 100% of the way there, but the amp still sounds and responds like I expect for the most part. Dropping to -8db the tone degrades a little more and the response of the amp is drastically different. It's A LOT more compressed than usual, so lots of playing dynamics get lost and it doesn't clean up very well with the volume knob. Forget about going to -12db or more, those settings sound worse than a distortion pedal into an SS combo.
Attenuators are good for taking the edge off of an amp; they can't bring a 100W head down to bedroom level and still sound decent. For example I have a 100W Marshall Jubilee, and I occasionally use it with a THD Hot Plate. The -4db setting on the Hot Plate sounds pretty good; it's not 100% of the way there, but the amp still sounds and responds like I expect for the most part. Dropping to -8db the tone degrades a little more and the response of the amp is drastically different. It's A LOT more compressed than usual, so lots of playing dynamics get lost and it doesn't clean up very well with the volume knob. Forget about going to -12db or more, those settings sound worse than a distortion pedal into an SS combo.
dystrust
Well-known member
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
+1
The impedance is cut in half. So if the cabinet is 16 ohms, change to the 8-ohm output / setting.
+1
The impedance is cut in half. So if the cabinet is 16 ohms, change to the 8-ohm output / setting.
Empty Pockets
BadHairDayologist
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
If you think you need an attenuator, you actually need a different amp.
If you think you need an attenuator, you actually need a different amp.
JeffB
Let it B
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
Yeah. Get a (much) lower wattage amp.
Been down that road lately. 3 attenuators, swing and a miss. For me ,even with the best attenuators, the tone/dynamics difference kills it. Speaker/amp/volume is critical to the sounds *I* want to hear. As soon as you start attenuating, even a little bit, you kill that interaction with the speaker.
My DSL40c I can work with between 9-10 oclock on the master volume, but my OR15 is just a better option for the home. Especially on 7 watt mode,which is surprisingly good.
Yeah. Get a (much) lower wattage amp.
Been down that road lately. 3 attenuators, swing and a miss. For me ,even with the best attenuators, the tone/dynamics difference kills it. Speaker/amp/volume is critical to the sounds *I* want to hear. As soon as you start attenuating, even a little bit, you kill that interaction with the speaker.
My DSL40c I can work with between 9-10 oclock on the master volume, but my OR15 is just a better option for the home. Especially on 7 watt mode,which is surprisingly good.
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Re: Questions on an attenuator?
Pulling half the tubes does cut the wattage in half but you will not notice the difference between a 50W and a 100W amp volume-wise, only how loud it is when it starts to break up. You need to get down into the 20 to 30 watt range to really make a difference. Unless all you want is clean headroom at any volume, 100W amps are a huge waste.
I gig with a 20-ish watt amp and never even come close to opening it up all the way and if it needs to be louder, it gets miced into the PA.
So basically, yeah I agree with the sentiment that if you think you need an attenuator, the best solution is a quieter amp.
Pulling half the tubes does cut the wattage in half but you will not notice the difference between a 50W and a 100W amp volume-wise, only how loud it is when it starts to break up. You need to get down into the 20 to 30 watt range to really make a difference. Unless all you want is clean headroom at any volume, 100W amps are a huge waste.
I gig with a 20-ish watt amp and never even come close to opening it up all the way and if it needs to be louder, it gets miced into the PA.
So basically, yeah I agree with the sentiment that if you think you need an attenuator, the best solution is a quieter amp.
dystrust
Well-known member
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
You might trust a Scholz Power Soak, but you really shouldn't. It uses a purely resistive load which can cause issues with flyback voltage and fry your output transformer. I don't know how powerful your amp is, but a friend of mine smoked the OT in his 100W '71 Superlead by cranking it through a Power Soak.
You might trust a Scholz Power Soak, but you really shouldn't. It uses a purely resistive load which can cause issues with flyback voltage and fry your output transformer. I don't know how powerful your amp is, but a friend of mine smoked the OT in his 100W '71 Superlead by cranking it through a Power Soak.
tman
New member
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
Dude I have been using it for 2 years now and not one issue.I have a new OP trans installed a Classictone and that was only because I wanted to upgrade the amp.That power soak works fine Im not sure why people have had trouble with it Im just one of the lucky ones I guess. I use it both on a 100w Windsor and a 40watt Marshall no problems.I also dont attenuate the sound all that much just a tad.I get away with high volume where I live lol.
Dude I have been using it for 2 years now and not one issue.I have a new OP trans installed a Classictone and that was only because I wanted to upgrade the amp.That power soak works fine Im not sure why people have had trouble with it Im just one of the lucky ones I guess. I use it both on a 100w Windsor and a 40watt Marshall no problems.I also dont attenuate the sound all that much just a tad.I get away with high volume where I live lol.
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tman
New member
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
All I know is that I have been using one for 2 going on 3 years and never had a problem.I believe a lot of those problems(which I heard about) nobody knows if there are other factors that were involved with those issues.I don't believe it was all to do with the unit myself.Tom Sholtz had a degree in engineering and was very intelligent. I actually have the Power soak II which maybe a little diff then the original unit maybe mine was more improved don't know but I think some of those issues were with player error using the unit.There are so many factors that can be involved with burnt up amps.To name a few not using correct ohm loads on the unit,constantly using the attenuator on full tilt and always having amp cranked,having already old OT's that are worn already and then using the attenuator on them constantly yeah would probably fry it out. I just think it was a new standard and most didn't know how to use them correctly.It is a tool not to be used all the time. I never listen to bad stories because there always are going to be this sucks because of that and this unit burnt my amp we cant judge on what happened because were not there.Now if you actually saw it happen to yours or someone you know then fine maybe a bad unit.But all I know is mine has worked fine for 2-3 years and not one problem and is still working fine and my amp has never sounded better.
All I know is that I have been using one for 2 going on 3 years and never had a problem.I believe a lot of those problems(which I heard about) nobody knows if there are other factors that were involved with those issues.I don't believe it was all to do with the unit myself.Tom Sholtz had a degree in engineering and was very intelligent. I actually have the Power soak II which maybe a little diff then the original unit maybe mine was more improved don't know but I think some of those issues were with player error using the unit.There are so many factors that can be involved with burnt up amps.To name a few not using correct ohm loads on the unit,constantly using the attenuator on full tilt and always having amp cranked,having already old OT's that are worn already and then using the attenuator on them constantly yeah would probably fry it out. I just think it was a new standard and most didn't know how to use them correctly.It is a tool not to be used all the time. I never listen to bad stories because there always are going to be this sucks because of that and this unit burnt my amp we cant judge on what happened because were not there.Now if you actually saw it happen to yours or someone you know then fine maybe a bad unit.But all I know is mine has worked fine for 2-3 years and not one problem and is still working fine and my amp has never sounded better.
tman
New member
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
Though the Power Soak was not the first power attenuation device for guitar amps, it was the first to be 100% reliable, the first to respect the sound of the amp. Most of all, it was the first to include a volume control: the previous devices were only dummy-loads without setting.
Though the Power Soak was not the first power attenuation device for guitar amps, it was the first to be 100% reliable, the first to respect the sound of the amp. Most of all, it was the first to include a volume control: the previous devices were only dummy-loads without setting.
tman
New member
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
An updated version of the original Power-Soak, known as "Model II", was issued in the end of 1981: it has an extra switch made to adapt the Power-Soak to the solid-state amps (though its primary target is the tube amps market). The resistors network was tweaked a little, for a more precise attenuation control (?). No audible sonic difference with Model I.
Discontinued in 1982 when the Rockman headphones amp was created, the Power-Soak was re-issued in 1992 as a PS-III model: the difference is in the jack positions (rear panel on the re-issue, front panel on the original). The solid-state switch has disappeared, and the manual says that the PS-3 can be used both with solid-state and tubes amps. The impedance selector has two positions only (4 & 8 ohms), but 16 ohms amps can be used at the 8 ohms setting.
An updated version of the original Power-Soak, known as "Model II", was issued in the end of 1981: it has an extra switch made to adapt the Power-Soak to the solid-state amps (though its primary target is the tube amps market). The resistors network was tweaked a little, for a more precise attenuation control (?). No audible sonic difference with Model I.
Discontinued in 1982 when the Rockman headphones amp was created, the Power-Soak was re-issued in 1992 as a PS-III model: the difference is in the jack positions (rear panel on the re-issue, front panel on the original). The solid-state switch has disappeared, and the manual says that the PS-3 can be used both with solid-state and tubes amps. The impedance selector has two positions only (4 & 8 ohms), but 16 ohms amps can be used at the 8 ohms setting.
tman
New member
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
The Power Soak must be first connected to the amp. Before doing that, one must set the Power-Soak to the proper impedance with the front panel switch (4, 8 or 16 ohms).
Then one or two cabs (parallel mode) can be connected to the Power Soak outputs: once the Power-Soak is connected to the amp, this amp cannot be damaged, since its powerwill be anyway dissipated by the Power-Soak. Should someone turn his tube amp on before connecting a load to it, the accident will happen: the output transformer will probably blow out!
The Power-Soak is not just a volume pot: it handles up to 100W power (equivalent to a regular light bulb), so using power-designed cables is absolutely necessary: using audio line signal level cables would certainly result in a shortage, blowing the amp out too. Here is dome good example sof what people might of been doing.
The Power Soak must be first connected to the amp. Before doing that, one must set the Power-Soak to the proper impedance with the front panel switch (4, 8 or 16 ohms).
Then one or two cabs (parallel mode) can be connected to the Power Soak outputs: once the Power-Soak is connected to the amp, this amp cannot be damaged, since its powerwill be anyway dissipated by the Power-Soak. Should someone turn his tube amp on before connecting a load to it, the accident will happen: the output transformer will probably blow out!
The Power-Soak is not just a volume pot: it handles up to 100W power (equivalent to a regular light bulb), so using power-designed cables is absolutely necessary: using audio line signal level cables would certainly result in a shortage, blowing the amp out too. Here is dome good example sof what people might of been doing.
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
good info.. Ive thought a time or 5 about getting one...
good info.. Ive thought a time or 5 about getting one...
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
Having used an attenuator, I would agree with this. Less hassle, less potential equipment issues and tube problems, and no more math problems every time you have to switch heads or cabs.
I don't like math.
Plus stuff like Kempers, Fractals, and Line6 type modelers have gotten a LOT better in the time since I've used an attenuator, and small tube amps in the 40w-and under range have gotten better.
Having used an attenuator, I would agree with this. Less hassle, less potential equipment issues and tube problems, and no more math problems every time you have to switch heads or cabs.
I don't like math.
Plus stuff like Kempers, Fractals, and Line6 type modelers have gotten a LOT better in the time since I've used an attenuator, and small tube amps in the 40w-and under range have gotten better.
Progbusters
New member
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
I have a Weber Mini Mass. You need it rated twice that of your amp at least. It doesn't do much until you have it past 50%. Then the tone starts getting muffled.
I have a Weber Mini Mass. You need it rated twice that of your amp at least. It doesn't do much until you have it past 50%. Then the tone starts getting muffled.
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Questions on an attenuator?
It is reasonably safe to do any of this stuff if you instantly stop playing when the sound cuts out.
It is true that you will kill your output transformer when you play the tube amp without load, but it isn't instant. If the sound cuts out, don't noodle while you look around for loose cables. When your tube amp stops making sounds you stop playing. Then you debug by first looking for shortcuts, then by using low volume to look for disconnected speakers (including burned up load resistors).
Pointing a fan directly to the resistors in an load unit will greatly improve overall reliability. Get a silent 120mm computer fan and some cable straps to pin it on there.
It is reasonably safe to do any of this stuff if you instantly stop playing when the sound cuts out.
It is true that you will kill your output transformer when you play the tube amp without load, but it isn't instant. If the sound cuts out, don't noodle while you look around for loose cables. When your tube amp stops making sounds you stop playing. Then you debug by first looking for shortcuts, then by using low volume to look for disconnected speakers (including burned up load resistors).
Pointing a fan directly to the resistors in an load unit will greatly improve overall reliability. Get a silent 120mm computer fan and some cable straps to pin it on there.
