Rails versions of classic pickups?

[freefrog]

Not really interested in lab results other than as an intellectual curiosity. I AM interested in real world results that players can sense. Again, in the real world, never encountered any drop out between strings on any pickup. Again, the only way to get that is to put something like a Fralin split steel pole in the NECK where you could bend a G far enough to hear it, which is why he'll tell you they're for bridge only. Also, real world, humbuckers with adjustable poles can have the poles adjusted for equal string balance, EVEN WITH 3 poles removed on one coil under the bass strings. Rails, fixed rod magnets, cannot without some compromise in volume of some strings.

So if the point of the rail versions of classic pickups is just to make something that sound like the original but looks like a rails, ok, maybe there's a market there, but I've never encountered anyone who was looking for that. If it's a different wind/magnet/pole, it probably sounds as much like the original as a "little" versions.....

Regarding the possibility of volume drops between poles with traditional cylindrical poles in one coil, let's agree to disagree, so. I'll share screenshots related to the audio parts of our tests about that if I can put my hands on these docs...

But yes, putting something like a Fralin split steel pole in the neck where you could bend a G far enough to hear it would produce a drop in volume. That's the problem of all models with 3 strings per coil like the flawed Fender Super 55 Split Coils (and that's what Zexcoil solved with his slanted blade poles)...

And yes, traditional humbuckers with adjustable poles can have the poles adjusted for equal string balance, EVEN WITH 3 poles removed on one coil under the bass strings...

I agree with you on all of this.

Now, lab tests done here, by Kenis or by others were always meant to underline if not to explain what happens with "real wold humbuckers"...

... and the screenshots shared in post 14 (really blury, sorry for that) were not lab tests: they sum up audio tests, showing clearly IMO the kind of flatter response obtained with a rails humbucker while traditional humbuckers tend to produce a less even response under chords - even with a vintage Patent Sticker Gibson that we consider here as a notorious example of even sounding trad humbucker.

 

[Artie]

Re, dropouts. I've never been fast. But I love doing deep bends on my pentatonic runs. I don't think I've ever noticed a dropout no matter how far I bent the string. I like rails primarily for the looks. But the HR, CR, VR's, for their sound.

 

[jeremy]

im very curious how a seth or antiquity wind on a two a2 bar magnet rails pup would sound

 

[Mincer]

im very curious how a seth or antiquity wind on a two a2 bar magnet rails pup would sound

Me too- I'd order an Antiquity Rails set for sure.

 

[uOpt]

Can't resist (about the specific steel alloys used):

 

[freefrog]

BTW, there's a YT vid comparing directly JB with rails vs poles:

The spectrum of each track shows the EQing of the amp + cab as much as the effect of the pickups themselves but should still illustrate what I was trying to say about the flatter response with rails...

 

[Rex_Rocker]

BTW, there's a YT vid comparing directly JB with rails vs poles:

The spectrum of each track shows the EQing of the amp + cab as much as the effect of the pickups themselves but should still illustrate what I was trying to say about the flatter response with rails...

I think the variable here, however, is that the JB Rails has an A8 magnet.

 

[jeremy]

yeah, we knew that though

 

[Mincer]

I think the variable here, however, is that the JB Rails has an A8 magnet.

I think they did that to make it sound more like the regular JB with A5.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Yeah, probably.

 

[freefrog]

I think the variable here, however, is that the JB Rails has an A8 magnet.

Yes. Sorry to have not recalled that: it was going without saying in my mind...

A8 is stronger magnetically and brings slightly less inductance / less eddy currents by itself, containing less iron than A5... but it's still AlNiCo. ;-)

It's an occasion for me to testify about how similar sounding the Bill Lawrence style design can be with AlNiCo and ceramic magnets, anyway : even with A5, rails sound like rails IME (and magnetism measured at the surface of the blades is not that different with both).

 

[GilmourD]

What's the carbon rating in the steel alloy used for the rails?

Not sure if you're being sarcastic (your post is the last one on page 1 and I haven't advanced to page 2, yet), but that would make a minor difference.

It's one of those things where little things add up. It's like the joke about going to Target for one thing, grabbing a bunch of things that don't exceed $4 each, but somehow you have a $300 cart. Ya know?

 

[uOpt]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic (your post is the last one on page 1 and I haven't advanced to page 2, yet), but that would make a minor difference.

It's one of those things where little things add up. It's like the joke about going to Target for one thing, grabbing a bunch of things that don't exceed $4 each, but somehow you have a $300 cart. Ya know?

Semi-serious. I posted a youtube video showing different screws in a PAF.

As you say, the little things can add up.

Now I will only accept slugs and screws made from steel from the German high seas fleet that scuttled itself after WW1 in front of Scapa Flow. But I have to compete with medical equipment for that steel.

 

[RayBarbeeMusic]

Can't resist (about the specific steel alloys used):

For anyone wondering, this is not voodoo or marketing. Go to Philadelphia Luthier tools, buy some filisters of 1022 and some 1010. Listen to the difference. A lot "PAF"s today are made with 1022, which is why they tend to sound spikey... Alloys matter, length matters. A lot. Not only do the alloys matter, but the magnets matter. Throbak mags do NOT sound like other company's magnets.

All of those things can be used to fine tune a pickup without replacing it.

And there is still no such thing as a "drop out" between strings on a functioning humbucker, P90, Rod single coil, Mini, Firebird, Filtertron, etc.

 

[RayBarbeeMusic]

BTW, there's a YT vid comparing directly JB with rails vs poles:

The spectrum of each track shows the EQing of the amp + cab as much as the effect of the pickups themselves but should still illustrate what I was trying to say about the flatter response with rails...

Classic sounds more open and less congested; rails has noticeably more low mids and thicker sound. And I wish people would post YT videos that weren't gained out and brutalz because it's very hard to hear much of anything once you compress it into a singularity.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Classic sounds more open and less congested; rails has noticeably more low mids and thicker sound. And I wish people would post YT videos that weren't gained out and brutalz because it's very hard to hear much of anything once you compress it into a singularity.

He does goes through a few different sounds in the vid. That being said, I could hear the difference, and it looks like you could too.

Then again, it's a high output rails bridge pickup. That is kinda target demographic for it. Probably not going to get a lot of soulful blues players or dynamic jazz reviewers interested in an 18K Alnico 8 pickup.

 

[freefrog]

And there is still no such thing as a "drop out" between strings on a functioning humbucker, P90, Rod single coil, Mini, Firebird, Filtertron, etc.

Initially, this reply was sharing a link toward another topic discussing this question. I've decided to edit it out in order to avoid an endless controversial argument. Let's just recall that I've not evoked this kind of issues as being typical of normally functioning pickups. I've clearly stated from the start that it had been noticed here in a few cases, involving specific ("idiosyncratic") configurations.

Agreed about magnets and alloys of screws / slugs/ keeper bars as being important, that said. So, who knows what can happen with super unevenly charged bar magnets, not that rare among vintage magnets and/or rough cast ones? ;-)

Classic sounds more open and less congested; rails has noticeably more low mids and thicker sound. And I wish people would post YT videos that weren't gained out and brutalz because it's very hard to hear much of anything once you compress it into a singularity.

Neck/bridge PU differences aside, the rails pickups whose response is displayed in my answer 14 has basically the same core clean tone than the JB rails in this case... And all the tests done here on full sized humbuckers with thin rails (from the 80's to contemporary era and from various brands) did show the same kind of frequency response than in my answer 14, giving the same kind of core clean tone than in the vid.
I've realized while rereading my replies above that characterizing this tone as "flatter" might be misunderstood : I was talking about the leveled output from low to high mids of a neck PU with rails, giving a flat / horizontal line on the screen of a frequency analyzer...

Subjective aural perceptions may need to be translated through different words.

Differences of perception due to various inner or external causes with sound samples are why I tend to share screenshots rather than sonic examples, that said : even the worst screen leaves intact the frequencies and dB scale of a graph (my answer 14 above has been edited to add a clearer graph, BTW; readers should "get the picture" of what I was trying to share on this basis).

 

[Mincer]

Oh, I dig the black baseplates and triangular mounting tabs on SD's Rails. As someone who direct mounts a lot of pickups, it simply looks better.