Recession is over, judging by new catalog

Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

In order for the recession to be over people will have to spend money. Regardless of the prices that anything cost. If the recession is truly going to end all of us need to spend money. I'm doing my part. Already bought my "new" guitar & am building another Strat. Aside from the music thing. I'm building an extension on my house.
 
Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

What you are seeing is:

The cost of all those lawsuits!

Plus

A rise in costs of materials...

The cost of wood is rising
Metal costs overall have been rising consistantly over recent years.
Labour's never got cheaper, workers always want more [inflation]
Transport Costs are up [see energy]
Energy costs are on the rise
etc etc.

Oh, and the final one is the hard one to swallow.

Because everyone is loosing their jobs, and not buying non-essential stuff... To maintain profit margins - Prices must rise.

Sad but generally true!
 
Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

FWIW, we are just as much to blame for this as anyone else.

We´ve all been supporting the change towards cheap, high volume, offshore manufacturing for decades by our consumption habits. In other words we´ve become greedy and solely concentrated on our own instant gratification. As a result, we´ve shoveled billions if not trillions of dollars into the collective poskets of the Japanese, Korean, and Chinese economies, completely oblivious to the fact that this is the reason that so many US companioes went belly up, laid off thosands of people, and continue to do so becasue our own consumption habits still force them to...

Now the direct results of that are slowly coming around to bite us all in the ass....

High unemployment = less money to be spent in our own economy.
+
Lower prices in comparison = less money actually spent in our economy
+
Decades of continued bashing of large, US based manufacturers (regardless of industry) as "Too expensive", "Not innovative enough" and instead buying the "oh so innovative" VCR /Lawsuit Guitar /Automobile that was nothing more than a **** forgery designed to get a foot in the door = Brand value goes down, and with it what people are willing to pay for the product.
+
continued support of the products that are NOW being developed thanks to us fricking ourselves over for 25 years and throwing money at "our enemies" = Not even giving ourselves a fighting chance at coming back.

=

People buying more and more offshore products, because US Products "Aren´t a good value"
=
Less uS products produced in general, and also a continued whittling away of the US workforce and by that the only real consumers we ever had in the first place.
=
Less money for US companies to work with
=
Less innovation and higher prices in the hopes of staying alive
=
even more bashing
=
criticism of the industry as a whole, usually with uninformed laymen making statements about trained craftsmen that have no footing in reality
=
another 5 years that Bob doesn´t get a raise
=
another 5 years that bob is forced to skimp on everything just to get by
=
another 5 years that bob will be spending most of hin money on consumer products produced overseas.
=
another 5 years where it´s not gonna get better
=
5 years that Bob is gonna be pissed off about when he gets his pink slip on Monday after spending 20 years with the company.
=
another unsatisfied, unemployed consumer
=
repeat cycle from beginning until masses become intelligent (highly unlikely) or capitalist democracy implodes resulting in widespread chaos and anarchy (likely within the next 10 years).


Not to mention what this situation has done to the value of the dollar, which suddenly becomes real important when you realize that almost ALL of the raw materials in a guitar come from overseas, where US Dollars are currently just a step above toilet paper ... that alone is a 20% increase, but at least its not so bad becasue the reast of the world will pay double what we have to pay... IF they care more about the US economy than Americans do, which isn´t something I´d bet on, especially considering that US made products were already exhorbitantly expensive everywhere else before the recession got this big. US MSRP was usually LESS than Dealer cost for most products over here, for example. And If you´ll all think quick, MSRP is the superhigh price everyone´s always *****ing about that nobody ever actually pays...;)

These days almost anyone that purchases an american product is seen as a loon with too much money or a fanboy with too much money. Hmm, how did we get here? Didn´t we used to be the number 1 industrialized nation in the world, with R+D in most fields far surpassing most others? I guess times change, unfortunately people don´t :rolleyes:
So... what about us that aren't American?;)

Do we have to care about Bob or can we keep supporting Roberto?
 
Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

I think this may have something to do with the dollar gaining some strength again, at least on the import stuff.

Just the opposite. A strong dollar would make overseas goods cheaper, and the dollar is stronger now. Don't know what the excuse is, but when you lower your prices, you sell more units and make more profit in total dollars. With high prices, you reduce sales, but make more per unit, but usually less profit overall, especially in a shrinking economy. Just about every other company in the country is going with Plan A. Not sure why guitar makers think Plan B will work for them. Probably more to do with executive & stockholder greed than anything else.
 
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Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

FWIW, we are just as much to blame for this as anyone else.


Yes and no. In Gibson's case, they jacked up their prices years ago, far beyond their costs, and at the same time, the level of quality did not keep pace with the prices. Gibson became a yuppie status symbol, and a greedy manufacturer & music stores were more than willing to take the cash. In a booming economy, you can get away with that. That pushed many potential buyers to other more affordable brands. Gibson's troubles these days are self-induced. Their mark-ups are ridiculous. Fender's following suit. Now that the eceonomy "has fallen off a cliff", I can't help but think this is very short-sighted.
 
Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

My solution to all of this is buy used. I have bought most of my equipment and instruments perfectly functional and near mint over the last several years second hand/used. I arrived at this conclusion not too long ago while watching music gear rapidly depreciate on Craigslist, Ebay, and other places.

Granted I have purchased a few things new including a line mixer, power amp, a set of studio monitors, various guitar cases, celestion speakers, a 4 space rack, and a Lakland bass. And my most recent Ibanez Artcore purchase was technically "used" but the guitar IS brand new - not a scratch on it.

-PT
 
Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

I think this may have something to do with the dollar gaining some strength again, at least on the import stuff....
I think it´s more likely the result of the rest of the world not wanting to be dragged in more than necessary because in the last decade their have been considerable supportive programs to try and get the dollar "back up to snuff".

The problem here is, you can only borrow from your buddies so long before they end up having to either cut the line or end up in the same boat going down Shiznit Creek ;)

Just the opposite. A strong dollar would make overseas goods cheaper, and the dollar is stronger now. Don't know what the excuse is, but when you lower your prices, you sell more units and make more profit in total dollars.

As a general rule this is true... BUT it assumes that the product has an unlimited supply as well as unlimited demand, both utopian concepts for everything other than air and water. It also assumes that both prices were profitable to start with.

With high prices, you lreduce sales, but make more per unit, but usually less profit overall, especially in a shrinking economy. Just about every other company in the country is going with Plan A. Not sure why guitar makers think Plan B will work for them. Probably more to do with executive & stockholder greed than anything else.

The laws of Supply and Demand dictate that when Supply is down price goes up top decrease demand. From what I gather Gibson STILL has issues meeting that demand. This means they´re selling more of them than they can produce, so basic rule 1 of economics = raise the price until demand droops to a level where it can just barely not be supplied. This creates desire for the product while not raising the demand to the point where you´re SOL with your production numbers.

So... what about us that aren't American?;)

Do we have to care about Bob or can we keep supporting Roberto?

LOL :beerchug:

Yes and no. In Gibson's case, they jacked up their prices years ago, far beyond their costs, and at the same time, the level of quality did not keep pace with the prices. Gibson became a yuppie status symbol, and a greedy manufacturer & music stores were more than willing to take the cash. In a booming economy, you can get away with that. That pushed many potential buyers to other more affordable brands. Gibson's troubles these days are self-induced. Their mark-ups are ridiculous. Fender's following suit. Now that the eceonomy "has fallen off a cliff", I can't help but think this is very short-sighted.

While I agree with you to an extent, many of these decisions were also forced on Gibson by the general consumer mindset. They were forced to choose between selling next to no product or selling the bulk of their product to a demographic which 30 years ago didn´t exist.

To clarify: In the beginning and middle of the 90s, Gibson´s quality appeared to be on the way up again, at least that´s what the Les Pauls and SGs hanging in my store said. barely any broken binding, decent (buit still not perfect) fret jobs without cheese grater edges, finish flaws were rare.... Unfortunately, people were already at this time so disillusioned by Gibson and so ultra hot on Tokai, Greco, Burny and Co. that many actually preferred to have me build them a LP for 2k more and wait 6 months for it instead of just pulling one of the 10 off the wall and trying it. I honestly do not feel that my Les Pauls were any bit better than the ones I had in my store. The alternative for people with less disposable income was a Tokai Love Rock or similar, but the price difference to a standard was only about 300$ and IMO the quality difference wasn´t there to justify the existence of the knockoff.

But either way, this is both Gibson´s fault for taking more than a few years to get things back in line after the Norlin buyout (which when one thinks about it is absolutely normal considering the way Norlin almost ran them into the ground), as well as guitarist´s in general for being a close minded folk that prefer to go by hearsay than what they can actually play and try themselves. I literally had beginners asking what´s good to start out denounce Gibsons as crap before playing their first note. That´s what I call an objective verdict, jup.

And this is what Gibson has been dealing with ever since they bought their company back. Players that feel they´re crap, Pros that still play them, and Collectors that still buy them. In all honesty, which of those 3 groups do you think Gibson will stop caring about first knowing that the others are still very much interested?:eek13:

IMO it´s a bit off to take a development that started before most of us were born and then try to fault people for making choices they were forced to make when the war was already long running ;)
 
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Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

Just the opposite. A strong dollar would make overseas goods cheaper, and the dollar is stronger now. Don't know what the excuse is, but when you lower your prices, you sell more units and make more profit in total dollars. With high prices, you lreduce sales, but make more per unit, but usually less profit overall, especially in a shrinking economy. Just about every other company in the country is going with Plan A. Not sure why guitar makers think Plan B will work for them. Probably more to do with executive & stockholder greed than anything else.

I agree with you on this for sure. I can remember an old adage that stated something along the lines of "better to have 1% of 100 people's money than 100% of one person's".

It's the same old I will do it because I can policy and people will just have to live with it. Well those days are gone. The days of made in usa or made in canada necessarily meaning superior products are long gone. Sure there are still some very good products made here but there as just as many if not more made elsewhere. It has always amazed me that people will scream by made in north america on one hand and then argue that Marshall's are the best made guitar amps out there...:1:
 
Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

^^ also much truth here...

But what gets my goat a lot more are the people that scream for imports, cheaper Duncans, CS options on production models, more options in general, lower wait times and higher quality.... And then complain about losing their jobs even though they've been sending 80% of their last 30 years income directly to China ;)

Honestly, if we made economic sabotage equal to and punishable as Treason (Which IMO it really should be because the difference is minimal at best,at least as far as the long term oputcomes go), I'd wager that 95% of the people living in western countries would find themselves waking up dead, as well as the companies they work for ;)
 
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Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

The LP Custom is made in the Custom Shop, that's why it's more expensive.

However, the regular LP Custom is not a historic, so it's swiss-chessed and has the metal anchor Nashville bridge posts. Bleh.
 
Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

fail-owned-six-pack.jpg


buy guitars now; they're just gonna get more expensive.
 
Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

Epiphone Sheraton II - Last year $599... this year $699.

what a drag...
 
Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

Epiphone Sheraton II - Last year $599... this year $699. what a drag...

I left Epi's off my list, but they're guilty too on some models. LP's, Sheratons, G-400's, are all up $100 or so from a year ago. That's a pretty large percentage increase. As has been pointed out, this is pushing people to used guitars, and that cuts into new guitar sales. Rather than keeping old guitars that don't get played much anymore, people can easily sell them online, which has created a huge market in used instruments that is mostly bypassing music stores. This is another industry self-induced issue created by high retail prices. When consumers are buying less of everything, the last thing to do is raise prices on is something they can live without.

If you're behind on house/rent payments, and your company may have a round of layoffs, try convincing your wife that you need another new guitar, especially when they just went up in price. How long before the music instrument companies ask for bailout money?
 
Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

I am not participating in this recession in any shape or form, thank you very much. Business with me is and has been as usual.
 
Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

yeah i was broke before and i'm broke now too. guitars have always been too expensive but there have always been ways around that.
 
Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

I am not participating in this recession in any shape or form, thank you very much. Business with me is and has been as usual.

Let's hope your fortunes don't change. But there's millions that are strugging now.
 
Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

With incomes declining, I can't fathom why they are raising their prices.

Also, with the money supply being destroyed faster than the Fed can print, we're actually in a deflationary environment.

Philcguitars said:

rise in costs of materials...

The cost of wood is rising


I know that the price of wood, at least for constructing houses, has plummeted in the US. So many mills have closed that there is shortage of sawdust (used for making pencils). The price of lumber is over 50% off from the peak of the last few years. I don't know how that is related to specialty woods like swamp ash or mahogany, but Warmoth's price for body blanks seem like they've only gone up a little bit over the years.

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/charts/LUW.GIF
(can not be externally linked -- paste url into your browser to view)


Metal costs overall have been rising consistantly over recent years.


Aluminum has plunged
Dynamic_fChart_cPrice.asp

...but iron has shot way up:
Dynamic_fChart_cPrice.asp


Considering the plummeting demand from car factories worldwide, I don't see those prices sticking.



Labour's never got cheaper, workers always want more [inflation]


In the State's, you're lucky to keep your job. Aint no raises on this side of the pond.


Transport Costs are up [see energy]


Oil is at the lowest it's been in 4 years (at least in dollars), and less than half of what it was last summer.

COM.GIF
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/charts/COM.GIF
(can not be externally linked -- paste url into your browser to view)


Energy costs are on the rise
etc etc.


Natural gas is down, too:

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/charts/NGM.GIF
NGM.GIF
(can not be externally linked -- paste url into your browser to view)
NGM.GIF
 
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Re: Recession is over, judging by new catalog

maybe its just where I live, but I have yet to find a good deal on craigslist.Mostly I see people trying to make a mint on crap gear for barely less than it costs new...pawn shops around here are the same way
I have got some good deals on the Bay for guitars but not amps

back to Bluesman335 .....yeh I was thinking the exact same thing when I got my last AMS and MF catalogs.......the deals to be had are scratch&dent and closeout I guess

Stuff will be priced higher because people expect buyers to talk them down. I had a phat cat up for sale for $65 Canadian on craigslist, and someone offered me $50. (They go for over $110 new here, plus 13% sales tax).

Whatever you price it at, someone will expect you to knock off $10 or $20.
 
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