Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

sosomething

sosomething

Seymour Duncan Customer Support
My band is going to be producing our debut record at the end of this year.
We're in pre production right now - those are the demos I have been posting - but the full record has to sound much better. We'll be recording the guitars in-house.

I need some advice from the experienced folks around here on some good, warm-sounding mic preamps to use on guitar tracks. I'm not too familiar with them, but I'd prefer to stay < $500 if possible.

So - good bang-for-the-buck mic pres floating around?

Should I go tube?

What's the general rule of thumb here?
 
Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

I would recommend the FMR RNP (Really Nice Preamp). You get a pair of very good quality transparent mic pres at a very reasonable price. It would be very difficult to find a good quality true tube preamp for under $500. There are plenty of pretenders, with a "starved" tube design, but this is not the same as a genuine tube preamp. The RNP's are bound to deliver a great signal, and probably represent amongst the best value.



Cheers..........................wahwah
 
Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

Thanks! That's just the kind of info I'm looking for.

I'm not married to the idea of a tube pre - I admit to not knowing much about the subject. I love how FMR has a list of what's cool about the RNP and what sucks about the RNP right on their webpage. I'm digging the extremely high headroom since we'll be recording some crazy-loud guitar amps with it.
 
Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

Hey now - that looks interesting too. A real tube mic pre (I'm assuming it's real and not some crappy tube in starved plate mode) for a low price.

I hate to sound ungrateful, but can you guys give me a run-down on the benefits of the RNP vs. the Brick? Much appreciated.
 
Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

+1 FMR's RNP

The RNP is decent, cheap, and two channels.
 
Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

RNP, for sure.

I personally dislike tube pres on guitars, unless you're using a ribbon mic (121's and a nice, 'fast' tube pre sound godly!).

What kind of A/D are you running it through, though? That's going to make possibly a bigger difference than the pre itself, especially when layering multiple tracks.

Also, consider taking a DI track for later reamping - it gives the mixing engineer a toooon of freedom! ;)
 
Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

sosomething said:
I hate to sound ungrateful, but can you guys give me a run-down on the benefits of the RNP vs. the Brick? Much appreciated.
Click to expand...

The RNP & the Brick are about as different sonically as you could get... Besides being stereo the RNP is a 'fast' preamp & fairly neutral toned. The Brick has a slower transiet response but is much thicker toned and "bigger" sounding on a lot of sources.

At $500 or so there isn't a whole lot I'd recommened that wouldn't be a step sidewards from a smackie VLZ besides those two. Around $1000-1200 some options open up... but given the choice I'd probably take a Brick. I have one of the old GT 'Ditto' DI boxes & dig it's tone & build quality. Way solid.

What are you using for mics & other front end gear?
 
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Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

Virtual Kevorkian said:
RNP, for sure.

I personally dislike tube pres on guitars, unless you're using a ribbon mic (121's and a nice, 'fast' tube pre sound godly!).

What kind of A/D are you running it through, though? That's going to make possibly a bigger difference than the pre itself, especially when layering multiple tracks.

Also, consider taking a DI track for later reamping - it gives the mixing engineer a toooon of freedom! ;)
Click to expand...

I'm definitely considering the re-amp route. The only thing is that I dislike tracking to an audio source that isn't going on the record... I'm one of those "play the amp" guys and different tones affect MY performance enough that it often sounds a little off (to me) when re-amped. BUT, I'm strongly considering it still, and will probably start another thread on it as we get closer to finishing the pre-prod.

Right now we're not sure what A/D we're going to use - the bass player is a professional A/V product demo guy who works with Sweetwater and he mentioned something about knowing just what to get... Suggestions on this are still MORE than welcome, though.

J Moose said:
The RNP & the Brick are about as different sonically as you could get... Besides being stereo the RNP is a 'fast' preamp & fairly neutral toned. The Brick has a slower transiet response but is much thicker toned and "bigger" sounding on a lot of sources.

At $500 or so there isn't a whole lot I'd recommened that wouldn't be a step sidewards from a smackie VLZ besides those two. Around $1000-1200 some options open up... but given the choice I'd probably take a Brick. I have one of the old GT 'Ditto' DI boxes & dig it's tone & build quality. Way solid.

What are you using for mics & other front end gear?
Click to expand...

Mics so far are up in the air. We have the usual 57s and 58s, probably an Audix i5, and a nice condenser of unknown type (to me).

For a preamp, our needs are fairly simple. We're only using it to record guitars and (very few) vocals. I'm afraid I'll have to ask you to educate me a little bit on what transient response is, at least on a cursory level, before I understand your fast / slow comparison.

THANKS GUYS.
 
Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

sosomething said:
I'm definitely considering the re-amp route. The only thing is that I dislike tracking to an audio source that isn't going on the record... I'm one of those "play the amp" guys and different tones affect MY performance enough that it often sounds a little off (to me) when re-amped. BUT, I'm strongly considering it still, and will probably start another thread on it as we get closer to finishing the pre-prod.
Click to expand...

I was almost gonna comment on the DI thing the other day but didn't...

After seeing that though, yeah... ya know, I'm not a fan of the DI guitar track for "reamping" later for all the reasons you've mentioned.

In the last five years or so, whenever I get stuff to mix about 98% of the time I end up using whatever tones were tracked. The only time I've EVER had DI tracks come in handy & literally "save" the day was on the Rosemary Pure record... and by their own admission they weren't very happy with the guitar tones that had been tracked.


Mics so far are up in the air. We have the usual 57s and 58s, probably an Audix i5, and a nice condenser of unknown type (to me).

For a preamp, our needs are fairly simple. We're only using it to record guitars and (very few) vocals. I'm afraid I'll have to ask you to educate me a little bit on what transient response is, at least on a cursory level, before I understand your fast / slow comparison.
Click to expand...

Mics make a bigger difference then the micamp. Micamps make a bigger difference then converters.

Nothing, but nothing matters more then what it sounds like 'on the floor'.

Transient response (in simple terms) has to do with how a circuit, microphone or anything else reacts to a change in sound... going from "nothing" to "on" sort of... If you look at a single-shot waveform of something like a snare drum, that has a fairly sharp, hard transient. A vocal or guitar on the other hand is 'softer' and doesn't "click on" in the way manner.

So fast or slow... it's about how it's reacting. Maybe compare it to amplifer/speaker sag...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_response
 
Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

sosomething said:
My band is going to be producing our debut record at the end of this year.
We're in pre production right now - those are the demos I have been posting - but the full record has to sound much better. We'll be recording the guitars in-house.

I need some advice from the experienced folks around here on some good, warm-sounding mic preamps to use on guitar tracks. I'm not too familiar with them, but I'd prefer to stay < $500 if possible.

So - good bang-for-the-buck mic pres floating around?

Should I go tube?

What's the general rule of thumb here?
Click to expand...

Groove Tubes "The Brick" is a kick ass pre for around 400. ITs a transformer based tube pre and it will serve well on a variety of sources
 
Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

J Moose said:
I was almost gonna comment on the DI thing the other day but didn't...

After seeing that though, yeah... ya know, I'm not a fan of the DI guitar track for "reamping" later for all the reasons you've mentioned.

In the last five years or so, whenever I get stuff to mix about 98% of the time I end up using whatever tones were tracked. The only time I've EVER had DI tracks come in handy & literally "save" the day was on the Rosemary Pure record... and by their own admission they weren't very happy with the guitar tones that had been tracked.
Click to expand...

Dynamics isn't as big an issue with the styles I mix - the amps are all so gained up that little nuances in playing caused by plugging into different amps aren't as noticeable as they otherwise would be.

I'd much rather reamp a performance and have the dynamics be different than be left with a **** tone on something with my name on it, though. I've received some rather... interesting guitar tones to mix before, and I thank god that the band tracked DI's.

But hell, it's quite handy when just using the same amp, at the same place. You don't have to track with the amp quite as loud as you otherwise would - you can even put it in an iso cab or run it through a Palmer or something, and reamp with a real cabinet later. It also makes it so you don't have to leave the guitar rig setup the entire time you're tracking rythm tracks. I'm a big fan of that, since I don't record entire albums worth of material at a time (for my personal stuff), and my live cab is my recording cab.
 
Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

???

Who said anything about dynamics?

There's a fairly quantifiable difference between 'committing' to tones and the overall direction & cohesiveness of a record then leaving many decisions until 'mix'.

Doesn't matter WHAT style of music it is or even what instrument it is.

All those individual elements & short bits add up to make a record or EP. At some point decisions need to made if there's going to be "an end" to the project.

I'm not saying the DI thing is a bad idea or anything... but in my world it's largely unnessacary & something that I, nor anyone I know or work with EVER does. The big cats... not home hobbiests...

But again, I have no fears & complete confidence in not only my skill set & what the artists that I work with are capable of.

I've found that people who really "embrace" the DI concept lack the confidence to make decisions and like leaving themselves the "out" as it were. Obviously, not true in all cases... but I'd MUCH rather see artists commit and have tones that relate to each other. Maybe have it sound "different" then the accepted norm then get a fairly 'directionless' record to mix.

Those are usually the projects I pass on.

It applies to drum sounds too... far, FAR too many people thinking "fix it in the mix" and get sloppy in tracking... creating issues that can't really be fixed or can only be fixed with lots of work that really has little to with music.

Coming up through the ranks it's just not how or what I learned...



Sorry for the rant.
 
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Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

J Moose said:
???

Who said anything about dynamics?

There's a fairly quantifiable difference between 'committing' to tones and the overall direction & cohesiveness of a record then leaving many decisions until 'mix'.

Doesn't matter WHAT style of music it is or even what instrument it is.

All those individual elements & short bits add up to make a record or EP. At some point decisions need to made if there's going to be "an end" to the project.

I'm not saying the DI thing is a bad idea or anything... but in my world it's largely unnessacary & something that I, nor anyone I know or work with EVER does. The big cats... not home hobbiests...

But again, I have no fears & complete confidence in not only my skill set & what the artists that I work with are capable of.

I've found that people who really "embrace" the DI concept lack the confidence to make decisions and like leaving themselves the "out" as it were. Obviously, not true in all cases... but I'd MUCH rather see artists commit and have tones that relate to each other. Maybe have it sound "different" then the accepted norm then get a fairly 'directionless' record to mix.

Those are usually the projects I pass on.

It applies to drum sounds too... far, FAR too many people thinking "fix it in the mix" and get sloppy in tracking... creating issues that can't really be fixed or can only be fixed with lots of work that really has little to with music.

Coming up through the ranks it's just not how or what I learned...



Sorry for the rant.
Click to expand...

"I'm one of those "play the amp" guys and different tones affect MY performance enough that it often sounds a little off (to me) when re-amped."

sososomething was talking about dynamics, that's why I mentioned it.


Honestly, your statement about the 'big cats' is way off. Again, it's going to come down to style, as all of the 'big cats' in metal really use and utilize DI tracks/reamping in a big, big way.

I understand this is not the way you learned/work, but you have to admit, you don't go for the most modern of sounds, or produce/mix/engineer the heaviest of bands.
 
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Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

Virtual Kevorkian said:
Honestly, your statement about the 'big cats' is way off. Again, it's going to come down to style, as all of the 'big cats' in metal really use and utilize DI tracks/reamping in a big, big way.

I understand this is not the way you learned/work, but you have to admit, you don't go for the most modern of sounds, or produce/mix/engineer the heaviest of bands.
Click to expand...

Errrrr uhhh...

Dude...

Some of my "friends" include Joe Baressi & Sal Villaneuva... I was assisting Andy Wallace when I was just 19 & working at Showplace Studios which has also hosted White Zombie, Ill Nino, Rollins Band...

I happened to be at Big Blue Meenie when they were tracking Thursdays "War All The Time" and 'ya know...

No DI tracks used.

None.

Notta.

Zilch.

Unless these guys are telling YOU something they aren't telling me over a beer...

Oh yeah...

You're not old enough to drink.

As for working with heavy bands... last year I mixed a few singles for Roadrunner UK... Stillrise & the like...

I suggest you be a little more humble when you speak about what I do and don't know.

Thank you.
 
Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

Oh great, here we go again with being talked down to...

None of those bands or engineers listed really do anything very heavy as far as I'm concerned, and the only mix I've been impressed with from Stillrise is on the latest album.

Wasn't that the band that had a track up for mixing on the Gearslutz forum? Did you really get picked for that?
*EDIT* Nope, it was that guy from Portugal with the 20grand worth of gear shoved in his bedroom. That dude cracks me up :laugh2:

I'm thinking of guys like Colin Richardson, Fredrik Nordstrom, Machine, Zuess, Andy Sneap, Mikko Karmila - all of them reamp quite often.

When you've got the facilities, time, cash, etc... to avoid reamping, yeah, I wouldn't even bother using it (I'd still take DI's as a precaution - I think not doing so would be irresponsible). But, if I don't have the cash to stay in a studio for a week tracking guitars, I can do it at home and have it reamped in the studio and take up much, much less time/money. That's where reamping comes in, for the most part - not tracking with the mixing engineer because of time/money constraints, but still wanting his particular sound/flavor.

I don't see how you can just completely write off reamping as an unproffessional or lazy way to get guitar tones. It's just another tool in the bag.
 
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Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

J Moose said:
Errrrr uhhh...

As for working with heavy bands... last year I mixed a few singles for Roadrunner UK... Stillrise & the like...

I suggest you be a little more humble when you speak about what I do and don't know.

Thank you.
Click to expand...

That was pretty much ridiculous and rude, especially since Jeff wasn't making generalizations and FYI is 100% accurate about the reamp in metal thing. Lose the ego.
 
Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

Thanks Robert. Now I've got three similarly-priced preamps I've got to consider! :)

Guys (J Moose, VK) - I sincerely value and need both of your input, but let's all get along, hmm? In a few days I'm going to start an actual reamping thread and we can all go round-and-round in there, because I haven't made up my mind yet.

THIS thread is about preamps. :D

Again, learning more about exactly what I need and what we want, here's the new list.

NEEDS:
  • Two inputs (so's I can track from two sources at the same time, either independantly or in a L/R config)
  • High headroom (loud angry Splawns and Bogners do not like to play quiet)
  • Balanced stereo outs
  • Great for guitars
  • Suitable for use on vocal tracks as well

WANTS:
  • Warm sound (this won't be your typical-sounding modern metal record. Actual amp tones aside, we want it to sound / feel more like Physical Graffiti than Doomsday Machine)
  • Ease of use

DON'T CARE:
  • Rack-mounted or stand alone, doesn't matter
  • Super-fast transient response - we won't be using this on drums.

DON'T WANT:
  • A bunch of onboard effects nonsense. I don't need an iPhone either. :)
  • Fake-arsed starved-plate tube design - say "no" to marketing hype!

So far, suggestions include:
  1. FMR RNP
  2. The Brick
  3. Aphex 207D

Can someone help me break down what I cane expect from these devices, or how well they fit my needs? Thanks so much, guys.
 
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