Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

[J Moose]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

Nah... it's just as easy to design a bad tube pre as it is a FET one. Good is good is good.

A few months ago I mixed a festival set on a bigger Smackie, one of the new 40x8 desks with those onyx pres (was kinda funny that I only needed 14 inputs) but I was pretty impressed with the tone of the thing. Worlds better sound then the old consoles. My major complaint was that I felt like I was going to snap the knobs off, build quality seems "light".

The worst part of a smackie isn't the micamp. It's the summing and all the other stuff... To say nothing of their abysmal customer service.

 

[AmirH]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

'Ya know, this is the LAST thing I'm gonna say on this...

You wanna see my invoices? I was contacted AND contracted to mix songs for a compilation... what happens with them after they leave my shop is whatever happens. As long as the clients are happy & AFAIK they were.

I was being a bit sarcastic last night, now if 'ya want I'll be brash. I couldn't really give two sh!ts about what some 16 year old 'self-proclaimed AE' punk thinks but when words are put in my mouth about me, my friends & peers about things that we've seen, done and know to be 110% TRUE and you're talking about our CAREERS?!?

You've bitten a hand dude.

Gone WAY too far over the line.

*plonk*

A million apologies to the rest of the peanut gallery for letting myself get baited by a snot.

Right this is the last thing I'll say as well since it isn't fair to the original poster. It was a bit wrong for Jeff to call your professionalism into question with the whole stillrise thing- that's an implication he really had no right to make.

On the other hand I will say that Jeff never proclaimed himself an audio engineer- that's you putting words in his mouth. He's a home recordist, as am I. 16 or not the dude does his homework- actually talks to and gets advice from people who are professionals in the metal genre and whom are gracious/cool enough to actually chat and divulge information. I know this because I hang out on the same forums, have talked to some of the same guys, and know Jeff well enough to know better than to assume he's just a 16 year old snot who likes to talk out his a$$ all the time. I don't think it's fair of you to make an assumption like that just because you happen to disagree with him. The fact of the matter is that reamping IS a staple of metal production even if it isn't used heavily in other styles and he was pretty clear that it's the big cats in METAL who take advantage of it. For whatever reason you took that as some sort of insult and then completely overreacted. You should never assume anything of someone elses intelligence based on age- I can name at least one guy who's only 19 and has mixed major label records for the likes of roadrunner and mixed them **** well at that. I can certainly see where you're coming from but in all honesty, the ironic thing about this little fiasco is that you're the one who started acting immature and degenerated the conversation into an argument. Normally I wouldn't even get involved in this sort of argument, but frankly reading it annoyed me to no end.

Right, rant over.

 

[sosomething]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

A preamp is a preamp is a preamp. There's no such thing as a "vocal" pre any more then a "guitar" pre or a "kazoo" preamp. Some things do lend themselves to be better on some sources then others but really, a good unit is a good unit.

Of course! I realize that, but some things lend themselves better to certain tasks, don't they? A car is a car is a car, but I wouldn't take a Town and Country to the track any more than I would take a soccer team to Dairy Queen in a Saleen.

That said, I'm admittedly pretty ignorant about actual outboard recording equipment. I have lots of experience with recording software, but everything that exists between the speaker cab and PC is a weak point in my knowledge base.

The Aphex IS a starved plate design... sounds "ok" but not a big upgrade over a Smackie. If you really need two channels then at $500 or so the only thing that's really worth spending cash on is the RNP. For a few bucks more you can probably find a used Vintech Dual 72 which is based of a '70s Neve design. Maybe $800-1000 used but it's a quality unit. Doesn't get any "better" from there, only different.

The other one to consider would be this Toft pre/EQ preamp linkage which isn't too shabby. I used it a bit when I worked at Mercenary a few years ago and while I think the RNP sounds a little "better" the Toft has a nice color & the EQ's alone are worth the price.

Getting the brick and the RNP would be hip too, but is the money better spent elsewhere on the record? Get a better mastering engineer or more time mixing?

What preamps are you using now? What's your whole rig comprised of?

We don't NEEEEEED two channels, and if the jump in quality (within our price range) by lowering expectations to a 1-channel pre is going to be significant, I will go that route without hesitation.

At the moment the only thing we own that in any way qualifies as a preamp are a couple of Line6 PODxts and some cheapo 2-channel USB thingy with XLR inputs in it. It functions properly but sounds a bit cold and doesn't have much headroom.

See my post below for our guitar-recording set-up and all gear:

 

[sosomething]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

Amps:

• Bogner Uberschall (1st gen, updated)
• Splawn Pro Mod (1st gen, Mercury Mag. trannies)
• Peavy Classic 50 2x12 combo with Celestion Alnico Blue speakers
• Marshall JCM 900

Cabs:

• Splawn straight 4x12 with Eminence Governers & Man O Wars in "X" pattern
• Marshall 1960A 4x12 cab with Vintage 30s
• Genz Benz G-Flex 2x12 with vintage 30s
• 1970s "Acoustic" 6x10 cab (sounds pretty cool)
• See above Peavy combo

Microphones:

• SM57s
• SM58s
• SM58 beta
• Audix i5
• nice mid-quality condenser (unknown brand)

Bass Gear:

• Gallean Krueger amp (don't know model - nice, though)
• Eden 2-channel preamp
• two Eden 4x10 cabs
• Bass Podxt

Will be recording guitars, bass, and vocals to PC, most likely tracked in Adobe Audition at 32 bit float.

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

What's your sound card audio interface again? To get sound to your PC that is.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

I'm quite pressed for time here & will be back...

Right this is the last thing I'll say as well since it isn't fair to the original poster. It was a bit wrong for Jeff to call your professionalism into question with the whole stillrise thing- that's an implication he really had no right to make.

On the other hand I will say that Jeff never proclaimed himself an audio engineer- that's you putting words in his mouth.

I don't think it's fair of you to make an assumption like that just because you happen to disagree with him. The fact of the matter is that reamping IS a staple of metal production even if it isn't used heavily in other styles and he was pretty clear that it's the big cats in METAL who take advantage of it. For whatever reason you took that as some sort of insult and then completely overreacted. You should never assume anything of someone elses intelligence based on age-

Hey man, this has nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with age. I was only 18 when I quit college & started working in a studio... this one; http://www.showplacestudios.com/ I took some offense even before the stillrise thing was brought up but THAT was profoundly un-****ing cool.

I'm not putting words in Jeff's mouth either... before I replied to anything I clicked on his myspace linkage because 'ya know, I just can't take the "age" thing under the avatar seriously... I mean, look at Rid! He's only 9 and he's an electrical & tonal Jedi knight! But right there on his myspace & in this thread Jeff's yakkin' about producing/mixing & "his name & reputation" which really, when you get down to it... is the one thing everyone on this planet has that can't be stripped away from us.

I think maybe the first blab on there, "I can't hear you over my awesomeness" or whatever speaks enough about that... (rolls eyes)

As for metal-reamping-direct experiences & whatnot...

Baressi's made some amazing records in that genre; Judis Preist, Anthrax, Tool's "10,000 Days" & lots of stoner rock... FuManChu, Melvins etc. He's not a fan of reamping... I'm really grateful for the times I was able to assist him, I learned sooooooooooo much...

As for Sal... he works outta big blue meenie in Jersey City. About 30 minutes from my house... I've been through that shop a few times... never seen reamping there & if they aren't doing metal... well, then I don't know what WOULD pass for metal these days. I won't even name names... just click around there... http://bigbluemeenie.com

(boggled)

I also have a really good friend who works for CNBC now but used to be the house AE at Beartracks in NY & has engineered Dry Kill Logic, Dream Theatre... Primer 55, Anthrax...

Reamping sure, some do it... some don't. My experiences happen to be based on 12 years of twisting knobs around day in & day out professionaly & hanging out with others who do the same. I personally don't know anyone who takes 'reamp' tracks unless the tones being captured are "questionable" with regards to the overall coheasiveness of the production. Again, his 'experiences' seem to counteract mine. Is cool. Got no problems with that. Makes the world go 'round & round...

But I fail to see how "I" started the derailment when he was the one who started 'assuming' things & making statements about my methods of operation & styles of music that I'm willing & able to work with...

Honestly, your statement about the 'big cats' is way off.

I understand this is not the way you learned/work, but you have to admit, you don't go for the most modern of sounds, or produce/mix/engineer the heaviest of bands.

?!?

Really, about the only genres I won't touch are classical & urban/electronica. I'd love to do some classical chamber recordings but I never get those calls... lol

And like I said, my original response to that should've been taken with a good serving of sarcasm...



I'll get back to the gear talk later.

Peace.

 

[sosomething]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

What's your sound card audio interface again? To get sound to your PC that is.

Right now it's all PODxt. For pre-production we've been tracking the drums direct into an Echo Indigo card from a Roland V-Drum kit triggering Drumkit From Hell Superior samples. Then tracking all the guitars and bass using PODxts. About as fake as it gets without actually using sequencers. Quick and cheap, tho.

At the moment we don't have what I consider to be an appropriate A/D converter for our situation. That's on the shopping list as well.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

At the moment we don't have what I consider to be an appropriate A/D converter for our situation. That's on the shopping list as well.

Yeah, I was looking at that list before & you've got a nice selection of amps & whatnot... a few good mics but "toys" as the input.

For a shopping list...

I'd recommend getting some kind of Firewire box that'll accept at least 8 inputs at once. Motu, Presonus, RME are all decent enough...

You'll also want & need some kind of compressor for vocals & especially bass. Applying it all "after the fact" in mix just isn't the same. Not even close. Gotta get a little (or a LOT!) squeeze on the way in. Problem there is that cheap compression like those Alesis boxes are giant tone suckers...

It might be a good idea to expand the mic collection a bit too. The 57's & 58's are pretty similar to each other & i5 is a good option but also very similar to a 57... For about $250 you can pick up a used Sennheiser 421 and there's almost nothing those mics don't sound good on. Highly usable on everything from drums to guitars, vocals, horn sections if 'ya call a trombone player. I'd stick one of those on a bass amp before an SM57 anyway.

You can also get a pretty ragin' guitar sound when combining a 421 & 57 like this... it's also possible to really screw up a guitar sound too! Gotta fine tune the placement by fractions of an inch to get them 'in-phase' but when they are... it's a HUGE stereo sound that's 100% mono compatible.

Anyway.... even buying used gear I'd budget around $1500 to cover the bases.

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

For a compressor on the way in, look into the RNC. Pairs great with the RNP for a nice stereo pre/compressor combo, and the darn thing only costs about $200 and sounds great!

Going to +1 on the MD421 + SM57 combo, and MD421 on bass amps.

 

[sosomething]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

It's a good thing I've got time to get all the pieces here in place.

Thanks again for your input here, guys.

A few questions now that all the dust kicked up in my head is beginning to settle:

1.) Why do I need at least 8 inputs on the Firewire interface if my mic preamp is likely going to be 2 channels at the most?

2.) Do you find it more effective to use compression after the amp on the signal going into the computer, or could using a compression unit in the loop or in front of the amp achieve basically the same effect?

That's it for now. I'll definitely look into getting the Sennheiser 421. I'm sure the subsequent thread on mic placement will be ungodly.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

1.) Why do I need at least 8 inputs on the Firewire interface if my mic preamp is likely going to be 2 channels at the most?

2.) Do you find it more effective to use compression after the amp on the signal going into the computer, or could using a compression unit in the loop or in front of the amp achieve basically the same effect?

That's it for now. I'll definitely look into getting the Sennheiser 421. I'm sure the subsequent thread on mic placement will be ungodly.

1) For the cost of an interface... it's really not a huge leap to go from something with 2 or 4 inputs to something with 8 analog ins & some future expandability like a lightpipe in. Anything worth using is gonna be a few hundred bucks, even for two inputs. Why spend $300 when for about $700ish you can get something future proof? Wanna record drums? How about a gig? What if you want to leave the guitar AND bass rig set up at the same time while tracking? That'll chew up inputs...

2) Err.... after the micamp. Most definitely after. In most cases anyway... There's a whole alchemy to using compression for level control & tonal changes...

 

[AmirH]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

Eh... all firewire interfaces are not created equal. I think his very best bet would be an rme fireface if he can throw down for it- excellent a/d conversion and decent enough preamps as well. Next best thing is what I use- focusrite saffire pro. It's like the poor mans fireface, and not quite as stable but it still sounds **** good.

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

RME Fireface, Saffire Pro, MOTU 828mkII or even the Ultralite would all be solid choices.

I personally wouldn't compress the feed from a guitar amp, though - not a dirty amp, at least. The waveform of a distorted guitar tone is compressed enough for me as is. I'll sometimes compress a specific frequency range to make room in the mix or clear up mud, but that's all post-processing.

Unless you can get your hands on an Empirical Labs Distressor, I'd recommend not comp'ing your guitar tracks on the way in.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

Unless you can get your hands on an Empirical Labs Distressor, I'd recommend not comp'ing your guitar tracks on the way in.

I dig Distressors just as much as anyone else & Emperical Labs is 10 minute ride away away, literally... but I dunno...

What do you find they offer & do for you as opposed to other compressors?

I love all sorts of things from $20 pawn shoppers to $2000 mono channels...

Either way I'm not sure it's valid here unless Sosomethings got $1400 kickin' around for a hellacious mono compressor...

Money well spent for sure though.

 

[sosomething]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

RME Fireface, Saffire Pro, MOTU 828mkII or even the Ultralite would all be solid choices.

I personally wouldn't compress the feed from a guitar amp, though - not a dirty amp, at least. The waveform of a distorted guitar tone is compressed enough for me as is. I'll sometimes compress a specific frequency range to make room in the mix or clear up mud, but that's all post-processing.

Unless you can get your hands on an Empirical Labs Distressor, I'd recommend not comp'ing your guitar tracks on the way in.

Thanks! I'll look into those.

Despite my earlier question, when pressed I don't think I have any intention of comp'ing the guitar tracks on the way in, really. As you said, the waveform from heavily distorted guitar is plenty compressed already.

Def. gotta have it on bass, though, but again I'll see what our bassist wants to do there.

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

I know I'm late to this party, but my vote is for the Brick. I've got one and I did some experimenting when I first got it, recording the same parts with and without it. I use real amps for the guitar, once in awhile I'll use the direct out on my Vox Valvetronix, a bass pod and a Tascam FW-1804 interface into Sonar 5. The Brick makes the recording sound much more "organic" than without. To my lame old ears, it take the digitalness away and gives it a much more analog feel. The Pod is a completely different animal with the Brick. It goes from sterile and lifeless to full and punchy. Just my opinion. Not saying the others don't, because I've never used them. Just giving my opinion of the Brick. Good luck with the recording man.

 

[sosomething]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

I'm really starting to feel that the Brick is the right way to go.

Not because it's the best all-around mic pre of those mentioned in this thread, but because it seems so far to be the best fit for going with the general production aesthetic we have in mind for this record.

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

I dig Distressors just as much as anyone else & Emperical Labs is 10 minute ride away away, literally... but I dunno...

What do you find they offer & do for you as opposed to other compressors?

I love all sorts of things from $20 pawn shoppers to $2000 mono channels...

Either way I'm not sure it's valid here unless Sosomethings got $1400 kickin' around for a hellacious mono compressor...

Money well spent for sure though.

I really dig the Audio Mode 2 on the distressor for guitars, the tube saturation emulation thingamajig mode. It adds some second-order harmonics to it, which I find to smooth out the top end and add a bit of gain to the overall amp, almost like a TS infront of the amp with a low gain setting.

I only like the 1176 better than the Distressor for dirty guitar compression, and even then, I'm most likely to leave compression out of the chain completely for heavy rhythm guitars.

That said, if he did want to grab one, I've rented Distressors for $50/day, which isn't all that bad.

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

VK,

you're not really 16 are you? LOL.

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: Recordists and Engineers - Good mic preamps?

That's the funny part - I really am. I get dismissed a lot because of my age, but I've been playing guitar for 6 years and have been messing with the whole recording thing for 3-4. While neither of those is a *huge* amount of time, it's been long enough for me to get a solid grip on what I like and don't like, and to find out exactly why.