Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

[J Moose]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

HONEST QUESTION:

How can anyone be considered a "sound tech" when they don't have any concept of how to run sound?

Is no experience required at all?

On the day of the first church service, does the pastor get behind the pulpit and say "Ok, who wants to be the choir director... Yes ma'am, I see you in the 3rd row with your hand up. Ok, choir practice will begin next week. Now, who would like to run sound for our fresh and hip contemporary church rock tunes? You in the back - is that a gramophone horn in your ear? Sorry, I think this other gentleman had his hand up first.. Yes you - eighth row, puddle of drool - yeah - you're the soundman. Rehearsal is Saturdays at 9."

New soundman: "Will there be snacks?"

Pastor: "There will be if you bring them."

Soundman: "Yaaaaaaay! I like knobs and buttons!"

It's WORSE when 'yer at the local-club and bar-band level...

Two words...



Free booze. :laugh2:



But yeah...I've been asking myself that VERY SAME question for a lotta years. Audio isn't brain surgery by any stretch...yet I dunno...maybe there should be some kinda license required before a new "audio engineer" is let loose on the public at large.

:chairfall

Not all of us are evil, horrible people with no skills...

There are people like me & the guy that devastone mentioned lurking around every major city & urban area...you just gotta dig around until you find 'em... but there ARE a WHOOOOOLE lotta cats out there with enough knowledge to be dangerous.

They shouldn't be allowed to mix brownie batter, let alone audio!

Hoss - My condolences man. Get that guy a really good book...I tried searching for a link to the "Yamaha Guide For Sound Reinforcement" which was a fukking bible for folks like the one you're "working" with at the moment.

That books real easy to get into & get a basic grasp of the important fundamental concepts, but also SUPER deep if you wanted to take it far enough. I hope it's not out of print...

I'll have to find something else to recommend then and I dunno what other books are that solid.

For the time being...I'd go pretty heavy on the "why don't we try..." suggestions and see if he's open to 'help' as it were...

But yeah...some kinda book that gives all the fundamentals from the simple raw physics to how sound travels up a wire & different mics, gain staging...all that kinda stuff.

Get hime one of those & maybe he'll impove a lot in the next 6 months to a year...

In 5 years he might even start to get pretty good at it!

Best of luck,

 

[Simon_F]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

This is another reason why I stopped going to church and converted to Islam.

So - the devil has all the best tunes and Allah has all the best sound men. Where does that leave Christian music?

 

[JOLLY]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

I've gotten in more arguments with soundmen than girlfriends. Glad to hear it all panned out for you guys.

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

This is another reason why I stopped going to church and converted to Islam.

:laugh2:

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

Yeah, I hear those mosque soundmen are the bomb!

 

[marvar]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

Hey, remember that most church sound guys don't know squat about what they are doing, and most do it on a voluntary basis, cause no one else wants to fool with it.
I am a professional audio engineer, and have worked with a lot of major artists, theater, choir and worship venues. I even ran sound for a service of 20,000.
Every so often, I try to hold seminars for interested Churches and individuals who want to learn about the equipment and techniques used for worship service. Peavey dealers also hold such seminars from time to time, try to find one and send you church soundman to it- he may actually learn the difference between gain and volume!

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

HONEST QUESTION:

How can anyone be considered a "sound tech" when they don't have any concept of how to run sound?

Is no experience required at all?

On the day of the first church service, does the pastor get behind the pulpit and say "Ok, who wants to be the choir director... Yes ma'am, I see you in the 3rd row with your hand up. Ok, choir practice will begin next week. Now, who would like to run sound for our fresh and hip contemporary church rock tunes? You in the back - is that a gramophone horn in your ear? Sorry, I think this other gentleman had his hand up first.. Yes you - eighth row, puddle of drool - yeah - you're the soundman. Rehearsal is Saturdays at 9."

New soundman: "Will there be snacks?"

Pastor: "There will be if you bring them."

Soundman: "Yaaaaaaay! I like knobs and buttons!"

Hate to admit it, but with smaller churches like ours, there's a lot of truth to that. There are 'good' reasons for it though.

1) Small churches don't have a big enough budget to hire a real soundman, and chances are that nobody else on the church staff -- other than some of the musicians -- would know a good soundman from bad even with a budget. We often have to take what we can get.

2) Even if the budget is there, most of the competent soundmen are out working so late on Saturday nights that they don't want to get up early on Sunday.

In our case, our "soundman" is young guy who's actually easy to get along with, but has neither experience nor a concept of how to make it work and there are constant problems. He also often shows up very late instead of coming at least a half-hour before service to give himself time not only to set up but to solve problems with mics, cords, etc., that often crop up.

He and other soundmen we've tried also don't get the concept that you can't just walk away from the board and go out on the front steps and gab or smoke a cigarette. Leaving aside the spiritual concerns of playing hooky during the serivce, as a soundman, church or otherwise, you have to think of yourself as CHAINED behind that board until the service/show/whatever is OVER. Hook yourself up to a catheter if you have to, because you are in solitary confinement until the benediction. You cannot just walk away. I can't count the number of times feedback/hum/squeal has happened, or the musicians needed the piano or kick drum a little louder in the monitors, etc., while the soundman is suddenly and inexplicably MIA and one of us has to distract everybody by running down the aisle to fix the problem.

 

[marvar]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

Hate to admit it, but with smaller churches like ours, there's a lot of truth to that. There are 'good' reasons for it though.

1) Small churches don't have a big enough budget to hire a real soundman, and chances are that nobody else on the church staff -- other than some of the musicians -- would know a good soundman from bad even with a budget. We often have to take what we can get.

2) Even if the budget is there, most of the competent soundmen are out working so late on Saturday nights that they don't want to get up early on Sunday.

In our case, our "soundman" is young guy who's actually easy to get along with, but has neither experience nor a concept of how to make it work and there are constant problems. He also often shows up very late instead of coming at least a half-hour before service to give himself time not only to set up but to solve problems with mics, cords, etc., that often crop up.

He and other soundmen we've tried also don't get the concept that you can't just walk away from the board and go out on the front steps and gab or smoke a cigarette. Leaving aside the spiritual concerns of playing hooky during the serivce, as a soundman, church or otherwise, you have to think of yourself as CHAINED behind that board until the service/show/whatever is OVER. Hook yourself up to a catheter if you have to, because you are in solitary confinement until the benediction. You cannot just walk away. I can't count the number of times feedback/hum/squeal has happened, or the musicians needed the piano or kick drum a little louder in the monitors, etc., while the soundman is suddenly and inexplicably MIA and one of us has to distract everybody by running down the aisle to fix the problem.

This is the very reason that when I design and install a church sound system, I make everyone concerned come to check it out when I finish the install, I go over all the above points, PLUS, I always install a feedback finder/suppressor into the system, I set the threshold to medium levels, just for instances mentioned above.

 

[Reload in 5]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

Oh yeah, one of the bass players was a studio guy in Nashville before he moved out here, I'd love to play at church, but I think I psyche myself out from playing with them. I played with them at rehearsal once, well, sorta, I got about 6 songs to learn in one night, some of the songs were in a different key on the CD than the chord charts, it's not that the music was "that" hard, but I felt like I fell on my face. I haven't been able to psyche myself up for it again. These guys can transpose on the fly, but I'm a little slower, especially without enough time to feel comfortable with the tunes.

Our Main guitarist on Sundays is basically a Pro that plays LPs, PRS, all top of the line stuff. Our piano player is also pro, he teaches piano, guitar and bass for a living. Our keyboard player can both read music and has perfect pitch, Bass player is very good, and our drummer has played with many local pro artists. They also transpose on the fly, and will regularly call out chords to add / change in a piece ie "lets do a Am9add11 there"
So I felt the same as you. What I found out was, I just fit in where I could. Aux percussion in musicals, fill in on drums when the main guy cant be at choir practice, eventually filling in on bass on Sundays, once or twice filling in on guitar or playing a second part. At some point started playing Electric in youth worship on Wed nights (Rock, sometimes fairly heavy)
I have found that I am now much better musically, from merely being around these guys. We get music Wednesday and run it once, then once Sunday before Church. Its kinda crazy. But awesome. Dont give up on working with these guys, let em know you want to be part of what they do, and just want to maybe add something where they need it.

 

[DLT]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

Ahhh yes...nothing like a church sound man (butcher) to get a musician in the spirit of things. Go to worship and leave feeling mad as fire. Oh such fun!!! The bad memories are all coming back to me. Arrgghhhhh!!!! :eek13:

 

[RW James]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

...I have found that I am now much better musically, from merely being around these guys. We get music Wednesday and run it once, then once Sunday before Church. Its kinda crazy. But awesome. Don't give up on working with these guys, let em know you want to be part of what they do, and just want to maybe add something where they need it.

I couldn't agree with the above more - you are absolutely right. I studied music theory in college and played a bit professionally, but the hectic schedule involved in playing music that you've had in your hand less than a week and doing it over again every week, really helps you grow. Plus I've had the opportunity to learn from some real professionals with a good heart. Highly recommend it.

 

[WORSHIPTEAM]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

Oh yeah, one of the bass players was a studio guy in Nashville before he moved out here, I'd love to play at church, but I think I psyche myself out from playing with them. I played with them at rehearsal once, well, sorta, I got about 6 songs to learn in one night, some of the songs were in a different key on the CD than the chord charts, it's not that the music was "that" hard, but I felt like I fell on my face. I haven't been able to psyche myself up for it again. These guys can transpose on the fly, but I'm a little slower, especially without enough time to feel comfortable with the tunes.

Dude if you wanna transpose "on the fly" ask the bass player from Nashville about the number system. It will change your life. Learn it, and you'll no longer need the names of the notes because the numbers are always the same.
:dance:

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

You see, this is why I can't go to church. If Ned Flanders argued with me about sound, I'd throw a donut at the back of his head as he walked away! LOL

Jesus doesn't like stuff like that. hehehehe

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

For as much drama and emotion that's coming through your post, are you sure you have a reason to feel this way? I thought it was about worship and God first, sound second....

Then again, I feel your pain, sort of. I mean, to plug guitars directly into DI boxes is retarded, to be honest. But with my ME-50 I can just plug that into the DI box lol: my one setup in Korea was exactly that, but they had monitors on the platform, so I could hear myself very well, and I heard it cutting through the mix.

Honestly, the drama between sound technicians and musicians will never end. But you've got to be professional ("Christian") about it:

1) If you don't like something, just tell him in a generic way. "I liked the sound but it was thin" or "it was flat", etc. I learned to do this with a guy who ran sound for the USAF peforming groups of Tops In Blue, and our relationship improved dramatically.

2) If you're not the music minister or sound board tech, try to talk to both of them at the same time, and be nice about it. Most churches don't have the money to just drop on equipment, so be nice and say things nicely. Don't point fingers and don't get into a "pissing match" either. Be professional. It's not your responsibility, not your "job", and you won't get blamed for your sound if other people are messing with it. However:

3) Tell the truth with tact and in love if they blame you. You may be surprised: sometimes it's something you can fix. But if you're sure, just tell them nicely what you think and if they get offended, how you feel as well. I've had to learn this the hard way many, many times, and usually I was on the losing / aggressor side.

Ultimately, however, chuches don't usually have the money to drop on equipment, so just try to be nice. Put your ideas in the form of a recommendation and make it like it's something that will "improve" the sound, not "fix". Try not to say things that make it sound like you're pointing a finger or passing blame. It's hard, but just try.

No one is perfect, but ultimately, it's about worship, not music. Anyone can play music, but that's not the goal of worship in the first place. Case in point: grab someone in the audience before service and say they need to lead worship. Almost guaranteed they're going to say they can't sing or something along those lines. Worship isn't always music. Worship needs to be the entire life of church musicians.

And just as an encouraging note: don't worry about your gear to the point of GAS and OCD. It's about worship first. I've been placed that I felt God reach out and touch me, and they were playing Walmart-level instruments. I've also been playing with musicians that had lots of money in their equipment but I felt like God was millions of miles away.

If you need something in terms of equipment, pray about it: God will definitely give you the equipment you need to get the job done the way He desires. How else could I pay $300 for a '72 fender twin reverb? And how could I know that a $300 guitar with $120 pickups (SD H.R. combo) would have people asking me how much money I spent on it (and guessing higher than I paid total)? God has dropped money/equipment on me when He deemed it necessary, and His timing is impeccable.

So, I hope this helps....

 

[JOLLY]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

You see, this is why I can't go to church. If Ned Flanders argued with me about sound, I'd throw a donut at the back of his head as he walked away! LOL

Then Homer would pick it up and eat it.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

Then Homer would pick it up and eat it.

:laugh2: :laugh2: :chairfall Doh!

 

[Davey]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

see..

this is my guitar *points to guitar*

see, this is my amp. *points to laney full stack*

check these little boxes and cables. they get the sound from the guitar, into the amp.

if you touch anything, you're dead. if anything is repositioned, pluged into something else, you're the one that did it by default. that means you're dead.
if you think you're smart and touch stuff behind my back. just to note. the white stuff aint cocaine. i dust for fingerprints. each day. and if there's any other than mine, or my band members, the owner of those prints, is dead.

you can mic the cab though.
tis been nice talking to you

:chairfall



twinreverb.. for a musician it's sound first, then everything else.
oh, but i'm on your ignore list right :lmao:

hoss, nice that he saw it your way.. even if he doesnt admit it, due to the low intellect. so far i only met one soundman that knew what he was doing. though i wont forget breathing down the neck of a soundguy at a venue here, that thought it was funny cuting the mics of a friends band 1/3rd into the set. i dont think that would be welcome there... but i guess i could don a black cape and a scythe :laugh2: at least fit the scene hahahaha

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

twinreverb.. for a musician it's sound first, then everything else. oh, but i'm on your ignore list right :lmao:

You are? *goes to list to check again*

Yes, I agree: for a musician, sound first, everything else second. However, church musicians are worship technicians, or ought to be. I'm just trying to help you out, if being a worship musician is your goal. If your goal is to be a great musician, however, then you're definitely settling, in the sense that you could do better. Yes, that's sarcasm.

For the church musician, it's worship and God first, musical proficiency second. I'm not saying that it's acceptable to suck at music any more than I am saying that God doesn't matter. It's a matter of order of importance. I'll be the first to say that church musicians need to be good at what they do in terms of music. But I don't stop practicing any more than I stop praying.

And if church music isn't your future, that's acceptable, so long as you stop pretending to be a worship musician, and soon. Almost everyone so far who started off being a Chrisitan musician or band and then used it as a stepping stone into secular music destroyed their career. You don't have to be a worship musician just because you're religious, however. It's just about what your goals are.

 

[RW James]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

When I was called to lead the band for Saturday night worship - the band was already in place - but they sounded really bad. The pastor came up to me and asked me if I could do something with them. I didn't change any personnel - I just helped them grow as musicians.

But the number one goal was to improve the music. It is a gift we give back, a tithe if you will of the gift He has given us.

We are called to play skillfully. And that includes good tone. You can't compromise this. It should always be the best it can be.

Yes, worship is the main reason we are here - but we can't be worshipful if we are struggling with our sound.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Remember the problems with the soundman at church i was having?

When I was called to lead the band for Saturday night worship - the band was already in place - but they sounded really bad. The pastor came up to me and asked me if I could do something with them. I didn't change any personnel - I just helped them grow as musicians.

But the number one goal was to improve the music. It is a gift we give back, a tithe if you will of the gift He has given us.

We are called to play skillfully. And that includes good tone. You can't compromise this. It should always be the best it can be.

Yes, worship is the main reason we are here - but we can't be worshipful if we are struggling with our sound.

I agree, to a point. However, I can worship without doing a thing. Worship is adoration of God, you can adore Him as an attitude, as your life during the week, etc. True, I'm the first one to advocate skillfully playing in church, but it's just my two cents on the priority of it: God and worship first, playing second. A worship musician that cannot sense the Spirit of God and what He wants is handicapped.