Retrovalves Review

[misterwhizzy]

Re: Retrovalves Review

That's true for the earlier tubes where the clipping happens, the phase inverter just drives the power tubes, so a louder tube there allows you to run your gain knob lower for the same volume. It's especially useful to make up the lost volume from running a low gain tube in V1 or V2.

That's true, but in this particular amp, the preamp drives the PI into distortion. Adding additional gain to that tube seems to drive the power section harder. As I understand it, many times PI distortion is mistaken for power amp distortion. I don't know if this is the case, but I do know what happens when I put a high gain PI tube in that amp.

 

[USAPatriot]

Retrovalves Review - Part III

Retrovalves Review - Part III

Tonight's review is brought to you by the color blue and socket V4 :headbang:

This was a pretty cool test. This evening I put the blue RV in V4, and while not a lot of tonal differences in this one so far as pitch goes, putting the blue RV in V4 definitely cut some of the fuzz. quite a bit, in fact. One of the interesting aspects of the JCA22H is that the OD channel basically sounds like a chainsaw, so making music with it is a challenge. For me that means putting it into the background where it adds some flair, and not putting it up front. But I'm 56 too, and grew up when classic rock was new. When it comes to this much distortion, you younger kids are far more comfortable with it up front, even in the lead. Kudos to OZZY and Metallica for making it all work!

Anyway, what I found was that by putting the blue RV in V4, I still got a volume boost on the channel (That's an interesting theme throughout all of this. Is that a matter of less resistance or what?) it also cut the OD by a notable amount. To my ears, OD is all about time...or frequency or speed. Assuming that the OD is a series of sawtooth waves, my ears hear more of them in a given timeframe as the OD level goes up. Think of a sonar wave. It goes out, reflects off an object back to the receiver and goes "Ping!". The closer the object, the more pings per second. Likewise, it seems, as the OD level goes up, there's more "pings" than when the OD level is lower. The blue RV seems to space the pings out, so to speak, giving me less distortion at a given setting versus a vacuum tube. Normally on the OD channel, there's more distortion at the lowest setting than there is on the nearly highest setting on the crunch channel, with just a little bit of overlap. In this configuration, Tungsols in V1 through V3 and in V5, and the blue RV in V4, I was able to turn the OD channel up to 3 and got an equal amount of distortion to the max on the crunch channel, but with more volume (Both channels were set to the same master volume level on their respective channels. What this boils down to is that I see the blue RV in V4 as giving me headroom in the OD channel, more room to work and a greater range of possible levels between 1 and 3. I would assume that if I had a second blue RV in V3, that I would gain even more headroom and maybe, even more volume since these guys seem to either boost volume or allow the preamp circuit to operate more efficiently, resulting in more volume. All in all I was happy with the result.

I have a question for you guys: How does the PI affect the overall tone of the amp? I've read up on WHAT a phase inverter IS, but that doesn't satisfy my curiosity. Is there something about it that could be tunable with an additional circuit? Is there some quantifiable (or unquantifiable) characteristic that makes one tube better suited for that use than others? Take as much space as you need to put your own view forth Thanks! -Rod-

 

[USAPatriot]

Retrovalves Review Part IV

Retrovalves Review Part IV

Well, I spent the afternoon cruising in the blue RV and I was pretty impressed on the one hand, not so much on the other.

Let's get the negative out of the way right off the bat so we don't have to dwell on it: The blue RV didn't work out so hot as a phase inverter. It wasn't any worse than a Tungsol 12AX7 in V5, and was worse than a 12AT7. It seemed like it undid the good it was doing in V4. Let me explain:

As I've mentioned, massive amounts of distortion aren't really my thing. The OD channel on my JCA22H goes largely unused as it more or less sounds like a chainsaw. When I do use it, it's at like level 2 or 3 at most. I'm no metal head so the fuzz and mud just doesn't appeal to me. But in experimenting with the blue RV in V4, I found that even at high levels of distortion (level 7) on the OD channel, the muddiness cleared up by a noticeable amount. I thought that was pretty cool, and I played with it for about an hour, working in some of my suitable rhythm routines in there. It was good for chugging, was good for sustaining chords and letting them decay. The clarity was good, something I'm not used to in this channel. The RV may be doing some EQing, dunno. Regardless, I liked it.

When I pulled it out and put it into the PI slot, putting a Tungsol 12AX7 in V4, I lost everything I'd gained and then some. The volume boot that I'd enjoyed went away as did the clarity. When I pulled the RV altogether and put a JJ 12AT7 in the PI slot, everything was pretty much back to stock...normal.

Two things I have not tried yet are the blue alone in V1 and the blue alone in V3. I will be doing that shortly but am not sure if or why there'd be much change from having it in V2 or V4 (second sockets of the Crunch and OD channels respectively) although they may mellow the channels to some extent since there won't be a cumulative effect of the tube before it.

And more good news! I contacted Doug at Jet City and he's sending along a red RV for me to review (They were previously out of stock so someone's buying them!) and it'll hopefully be along in a week or so. The Amber I had didn't work out, I'm shipping it back for a post-mortem, so I suspect he's sending another and I've also requested a second Blue RV...I'd like to mate them up in channels together or possibly have one inline in one of the channels AND stick one in V5 as the PI. While the blue RV didn't work out as a PI alone, maybe with one behind it it will.

Any comments or questions...or ideas you'd like me to try out...feel free to ask. At some point I'll probably try the RV's out in my Blackstar HT-40 as well...assuming it doesn't sell first...but that's not such an easy tube swap so I'm not in any big hurry for that job. -Rod-

 

[USAPatriot]

GOOD NEWS!

GOOD NEWS!

I got great news yesterday from Mayor Doug at Jet City. He's sending me 3 more Retrovalves...in fact they should have shipped today. He's sending one more blue which will surely stay in my amp, another amber to try out since the first one balked a bit, and finally I'm getting to try out a red!

It seems to me that adding a red into the JCA22H's OD channel will be like turning it up to 12! And we thought 11 was as high as it could go. We'll soon see! :reporter: -Rod-

 

[Ball&Chain]

Re: Retrovalves Review

So, how did you make the arrangement to try these out? Id love to try em out, but at 33 bucks a pop, seem a little expensive if its something I could end up not liking.

 

[USAPatriot]

Re: Retrovalves Review

So, how did you make the arrangement to try these out? Id love to try em out, but at 33 bucks a pop, seem a little expensive if its something I could end up not liking.

I emailed Doug and offered my services is all. 33 bucks is not all that expensive as far as tubes go. I think I paid around $15 for my Tungsols and their warranty is basically that they will work when you get them and that's it. I've bought a lot of tubes in 20 years or so and there's some I didn't like, at least in the amp I was using them in and some I didn't like in any am I was using. That's a risk you take when you buy anything. The upside to these is that the warranty is a lifetime one. I don't know what the specifics are but assume that means that if one stops working, they replace it.

I doubt if things like microphonics or the spurious pops and crackles we get from our beloved vacuum tubes are even possible with these RV's. I remember burning out a whole set of tubes in my Blackstar when my wife turned on the florescent light in the kitchen below, which happened to have a bad ballast. That cost me $130 in new tubes. The RV's will not be subjected to such things as far as I know.

So far, in my limited use of them, I'm giving them a thumbs up. Good tone, good sustain, a volume boost, less mud in the OD channel...once the 3 new ones arrive having 4 in the amp will give me a much better idea of what's possible. They do make a difference. Whether or not you like them is purely subjective -Rod-

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Retrovalves Review

i dont really understand why anyone would want to make their tube amp sound better by removing the tubes. i can understand the reliability thing tho.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Retrovalves Review

i dont really understand why anyone would want to make their tube amp sound better by removing the tubes. i can understand the reliability thing tho.

For me, I was mostly interested in the science behind it, and seeing if it were possible. I didn't expect them to replace or be better than vacuum tubes, but at least in the end I could look back and say with authority based on actual experience whether I thought they were any good.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Retrovalves Review

For me, I was mostly interested in the science behind it, and seeing if it were possible. I didn't expect them to replace or be better than vacuum tubes, but at least in the end I could look back and say with authority based on actual experience whether I thought they were any good.

That makes sense. Thanks also for letting us know how you found they affected your sound. This kind of research and information sharing is great for everyone.

In the end, I dislike them in every position except the PI;

 

[USAPatriot]

Re: Retrovalves Review

i dont really understand why anyone would want to make their tube amp sound better by removing the tubes. i can understand the reliability thing tho.

"Better" is pretty much subjective in the case of tone though. The volume boost is "better" in the context that I've been playing but I've not even come close to opening up the master volume on either channel. When I do so, will it still be "better"? I won't know until I try it. Overall I tend to believe that you don't get something for nothing and the positives could in some way be negated under some circumstances. The RV's really ARE different and that's something that many players are going to be attracted to, most especially you add in the bonus of a tube that will outlast mos vacuum tubes, not get blown into microphonics by a static discharge or a crappy ballast on a florescent light, nor snap, crackle and pop when the air is too dry or there's a thunderstorm 20 miles away, etc.

The bottom line for me is that as a lifelong tubehead, I've chased tone like everyone else, never satisfied for very long and have also done the digital modeling bit and found it sterile. I can't sense any natural dynamics in the digital devices (which are present in even the worst tube amps) yet thus far, those dynamics seem to exist in the RV's. It may be that running 5 of them would remove all the preamp dynamics, leaving only the power amp dynamics to add that tube quality...I don't know.

It may be enough that (in the case of the 22H), that running two RV's in each channel and tubes in the remaining sockets will be the best of both worlds...great tone, some boosts here and there, the natural dynamics of the remaining 3 tubes plus the longevity of the RV's will be JUST the thing to satisfy my constant gassing. The character of these RV's is such that you can mellow out even the OD channel or overdrive the crunch channel which of course means that the OD would be driven even harder. I pushed the OD over all the way this afternoon and just hit chords and let them ring until they died out...the sustain was VERY long and the character of each had that natural difference...different oscillations going on, faster or slower, more or fewer...that we expect from tube amps, and that was just with the blue in V4. The master volume was down...we're still living in an apartment, afterall...but it was loud enough to start the feedback going when I hit hard enough, so, cool for me.

Maybe what intrigues me most...and I'm cognizant of the fact that I have yet to test drive a red or the amber properly...are the possibilities that the RV's represent versus the money we've all invested in pedals and pedalboards especially. I guess the retail price fora pack of 3, one of each, is about $100, which is less than many of us have paid for a lot of our pedals...especially if we've been buying BOSS. How many OD/DS pedals have we owned and how much did we pay altogether? In some cases, thousands of dollars over the years and we STILL are eager to try something different.
In their own way, the RV's are right up our alley. They feed the fever of our gas and give us something that's actually new and different too. Some people will like it and adopt it. Some will hate it. Some won't even try. I was pretty close to being in that latter category simply because I'm a tube-bigot and tried the digital stuff and hated it. I own a GT-10 and use it just for the effects. The preamps blow. I'm just too old to hate something just because it's not what I love and here's a curious thing: I'm dying to know what's under the hood! At some point I will surely take a peek but will not be taking photos much less posting them. I figure if Doug wanted that info out there, he would have posted photos himself and while someone will probably post some eventually, it won't be me that will be doing it...but I GOTTA SEE! lol. I think people that play guitar are curious by nature so these RV's appeal to me in that sense. My wish to write a bunch of reviews is due to the fact that a whole bunch of people are also curious. If these make our world a little bit of a better place, I'm all for it. -Rod-

 

[ken361]

Re: Retrovalves Review

"Better" is pretty much subjective in the case of tone though. The volume boost is "better" in the context that I've been playing but I've not even come close to opening up the master volume on either channel. When I do so, will it still be "better"? I won't know until I try it. Overall I tend to believe that you don't get something for nothing and the positives could in some way be negated under some circumstances. The RV's really ARE different and that's something that many players are going to be attracted to, most especially you add in the bonus of a tube that will outlast mos vacuum tubes, not get blown into microphonics by a static discharge or a crappy ballast on a florescent light, nor snap, crackle and pop when the air is too dry or there's a thunderstorm 20 miles away, etc.

The bottom line for me is that as a lifelong tubehead, I've chased tone like everyone else, never satisfied for very long and have also done the digital modeling bit and found it sterile. I can't sense any natural dynamics in the digital devices (which are present in even the worst tube amps) yet thus far, those dynamics seem to exist in the RV's. It may be that running 5 of them would remove all the preamp dynamics, leaving only the power amp dynamics to add that tube quality...I don't know.

It may be enough that (in the case of the 22H), that running two RV's in each channel and tubes in the remaining sockets will be the best of both worlds...great tone, some boosts here and there, the natural dynamics of the remaining 3 tubes plus the longevity of the RV's will be JUST the thing to satisfy my constant gassing. The character of these RV's is such that you can mellow out even the OD channel or overdrive the crunch channel which of course means that the OD would be driven even harder. I pushed the OD over all the way this afternoon and just hit chords and let them ring until they died out...the sustain was VERY long and the character of each had that natural difference...different oscillations going on, faster or slower, more or fewer...that we expect from tube amps, and that was just with the blue in V4. The master volume was down...we're still living in an apartment, afterall...but it was loud enough to start the feedback going when I hit hard enough, so, cool for me.

Maybe what intrigues me most...and I'm cognizant of the fact that I have yet to test drive a red or the amber properly...are the possibilities that the RV's represent versus the money we've all invested in pedals and pedalboards especially. I guess the retail price fora pack of 3, one of each, is about $100, which is less than many of us have paid for a lot of our pedals...especially if we've been buying BOSS. How many OD/DS pedals have we owned and how much did we pay altogether? In some cases, thousands of dollars over the years and we STILL are eager to try something different.
In their own way, the RV's are right up our alley. They feed the fever of our gas and give us something that's actually new and different too. Some people will like it and adopt it. Some will hate it. Some won't even try. I was pretty close to being in that latter category simply because I'm a tube-bigot and tried the digital stuff and hated it. I own a GT-10 and use it just for the effects. The preamps blow. I'm just too old to hate something just because it's not what I love and here's a curious thing: I'm dying to know what's under the hood! At some point I will surely take a peek but will not be taking photos much less posting them. I figure if Doug wanted that info out there, he would have posted photos himself and while someone will probably post some eventually, it won't be me that will be doing it...but I GOTTA SEE! lol. I think people that play guitar are curious by nature so these RV's appeal to me in that sense. My wish to write a bunch of reviews is due to the fact that a whole bunch of people are also curious. If these make our world a little bit of a better place, I'm all for it. -Rod-

your like me in away of chasing tone and you tried the digital stuff and messed with enough tubes to know if these are legit. I think you know what your doing and have a good ear for it, really like to hear some miced sound samples sometime

 

[USAPatriot]

Re: Retrovalves Review

your like me in away of chasing tone and you tried the digital stuff and messed with enough tubes to know if these are legit. I think you know what your doing and have a good ear for it, really like to hear some miced sound samples sometime

I appreciate that. The best I'll be able to do as far as samples will be a camcorder set up with no external mic or anything. I've got no recording gear or software and in general, the compression of videos pretty much makes the audio trash so while the differences will be obvious, the specifics and quality will not, and that's a problem even for me. Since I closed down my youtube account I also have the challenge of finding place to post a video. Facebook does I guess but I have no idea what size limitations they put on videos. Time will tell.

While I have everyone's attention, last August 2nd we got burned out of our townhouse here in Bryan, Texas and lost everything except each other and the cats. Finally, they are wrapping up the rebuilding! The carpeting, tile and wood floor is in, most of the cabinets are stained and poly'd, Tuesday the appliances come in, Wednesday the plumbing goes in, Thursday final cleanup is done and with luck, Friday the city inspectors issue an occupancy permit, which means that if nothing else gets screwed up, we'll be moving back home over the weekend. After living in an apartment with less-than-desirable people for neighbors for a year, we're definitely looking forward to this. It may be a week or so before we get settled in. The computers will be online right away but I'm not so sure about my gear yet. I may be too worn out to want to deal with it but that won't last long. The FIRST thing I had our contractor do when the rebuild on the second floor started was run a dedicated ground wire from an isolated wall socket in the room, down the inside wall and out into the backyard. All I need to do is get a pipe into the ground and hook up the other end to my gear. Hopefully I'm done with the hum! -Rod-

 

[glassman]

Re: Retrovalves Review

Mesa Engineering used to sell what they called a FET-tron back in the 80's with thier Mark Is; you put it in V1 and the amp got a LOT more aggressive.

 

[trevorus]

Re: Retrovalves Review

Looking at the patent info on this, as much as I can surmise, it's an opamp based device, with some added controls of it's own internal bias and such to simulate tube response. I may grab one someday soon and tear it open and show what's really going on in there, but $35 just to destroy one is a bit much for me at the moment. That would cut into my beer money!

 

[USAPatriot]

Re: Retrovalves Review

Looking at the patent info on this, as much as I can surmise, it's an opamp based device, with some added controls of it's own internal bias and such to simulate tube response. I may grab one someday soon and tear it open and show what's really going on in there, but $35 just to destroy one is a bit much for me at the moment. That would cut into my beer money!

I wish I knew what you just said lol. Opamp? Do you happen to have the link to the patent? I'd thought about that earlier in the week but just got busy with stuff. -Rod-

 

[USAPatriot]

OOOOOOH

OOOOOOH

I guess this is an NRD - New Retrovalve Day! These 3 just arrived in the mail. The blue is a mild gain, the amber is standard gain and the red is high gain. It's going to be a week or so before I can review these as we're packing to start moving (hopefully) tomorrow and my gear is already put up. -Rod-

 

[USAPatriot]

Re: Retrovalves Review

Hokay! I'm almost finished moving. The stuff is in the house but there's boxes everywhere and a LOT of work still to be done. I'm hoping that on Monday I can sit down and plug an Amber RV into the 22H and see what happens, then I'll move to the red, then I'll start trying different combinations. With the red being the highest gain of them, I'm especially curious how it'll behave in the PI (V5) slot. I have tried the red out a little bit over the last 2 days but it's just been a few stolen minutes. It was fun and intriguing but I wasn't taking notes or anything...just trying to relax...so tired I slept from midnight to 11am this morning. Anyway, hopefully Monday the 3rd I can sit down and spend some time on this. -Rod-

 

[USAPatriot]

Back in The Saddle Again!

Back in The Saddle Again!

Tonight I decided to change my approach a bit. I put a blue RV in V1 and V2, an amber in V3 and a red in V4. The V5 slot has a Tungsol in it.

It's kinda purty but I didn't leave it like this very long. I had good volume, excellent clarity on the crunch channel and gobs of overhead and turning that channel up past 6 easily put it into the OD domain, much more than I'd get with glass. And the OD channel was pretty insane, far more than I would ever use. Both channels had good velocity but since I'd essentially turned 4/5's of my preamp into a digital preamp, the result was disappointing. I lost a lot of the touch that comes with glass. It was nearly impossible to soften the higher end crunch or OD into a cleaner tone by reducing the velocity. It was more like on/off and softer/louder. It was pretty good but the tube amp quality was lost with so many slots filled with RV's. It was also very trebly running it this way. I didn't attempt to EQ it out as I'm basically leaving it all set in one place all of the time for reference purposes. It sounded digital, not analog. Bummer.

The good news is that once I pulled an RV out of each channel and replaced them with Tungsols, all was well again and I was back to sounding like I was playing a tube amp. The specifics on that will come in upcoming posts. There's still lots to do.

Remember too that I've got no toys running at the moment. It's the guitar running into the front of the amp with no effects in the front or in the loop at all. -Rod-

 

[trevorus]

Re: Retrovalves Review

If you ever want to toss one my way, we'll see if we can find out what makes it tick.

 

[ken361]

Re: Retrovalves Review

those jet citys really sound good over driven, played one yesteray