Reverse wound versus out of phase

[Artie]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

Hmmm, I am unconvinced. You see a humbucker with a cover and a 2-conductor (1 hot + shield) also does the same thing. Hot comes in the coil one side and the other side is connected right to the cover, the shield. The shield works (not against magnetic interference, but against electric). I don't see any physical difference to "using" the outer windings as the same kind of shield. It's just a flat surface conductor connected to ground.

I know what you mean, but the thing is, in my own experience, I have un-covered, (un-shielded), humbuckers that are silent. I also have covered pups. The cover seems to have more impact on the "tone" than the "noise". I suspect it's blocking more of the signal we want, rather than the noise that we don't want. And that's cool. It's just another flavor in the tone palette.

Let's keep using polarity and phase interchangeably guys.

Within the context of this discussion, they are virtually interchangeable.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

I know what you mean, but the thing is, in my own experience, I have un-covered, (un-shielded), humbuckers that are silent. I also have covered pups. The cover seems to have more impact on the "tone" than the "noise". I suspect it's blocking more of the signal we want, rather than the noise that we don't want. And that's cool. It's just another flavor in the tone palette.

Uncovered humbuckers are silent since the bucking works for both electric and magnetic interference. You only pick up a tiny bit at the wires from coil to cable.

If you were to split it the single coil should have a difference in electric but not magnetic interference. In most environments that means the grounded cover around the single coil would kill much of the higher frequency buzzing but can't kill the 50/60 cycle hum, especially not the one that you pick up when you carefully turn the guitar to maximize it.

 

[Artie]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

If you were to split it the single coil should have a difference in electric but not magnetic interference. In most environments that means the grounded cover around the single coil would kill much of the higher frequency buzzing but can't kill the 50/60 cycle hum, especially not the one that you pick up when you carefully turn the guitar to maximize it.

Ok. Which one of us is drinking? (Both?)

I think I see what you're getting at. If I split an uncovered humbucker, the noise should increase. If I split a covered, (cover grounded), humbucker, it should be quieter. Is that what you mean?

 

[uOpt]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

Ok. Which one of us is drinking? (Both?)

I think I see what you're getting at. If I split an uncovered humbucker, the noise should increase. If I split a covered, (cover grounded), humbucker, it should be quieter. Is that what you mean?

Yeah, and there should be a noticeable difference in what kind of noise it kills and what kind of noise stays.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

How come you are so sure? The outer windings are a grounded conductor enclosing the whole thing. The other side of the coil sits all the way behind 8 Kohm of resistance.

To see why that can't be so, imagine you have an 8k volume pot. How weak and dull would that sound, even if you were able to turn it up to....eleven?

 

[Dennis Hrapeck]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

You also have to take in to account the north south pole relation of the magnets.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

You also have to take in to account the north south pole relation of the magnets.

No, the magnets are irrelevant here.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

To see why that can't be so, imagine you have an 8k volume pot. How weak and dull would that sound, even if you were able to turn it up to....eleven?

Hmm, I was talking about the 8 K that the coil is.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

Yes, you're talking about the coil as if it's an 8k resistor. If that's what it was, most of the signal would go to ground because 8k resistance between hot and ground is not very much which is why I said to think about an 8k pot. But it's not a resistor or a shield, it is (in combination with the magnet and the strings disturbing the magnetic field) a signal generator. You're confusing the engine with the brakes.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

Hmmm...

What I wonder about is this. Let's say 5% of the wind make up the outer layer and establishes a "carpet" that is a conductors with no holes.

Why would these two cases be different:

• Hot wire to inner end of coil, goes through coil, goes through coil to mass, those last 5% of wind are on the coil
• Simply move those 5% of the wind away from the coil and pretend that it is now a cover

What's the difference, noise suppression wise? Why does a cover act as a shield when grounded, but a solid layer of windings is supposed not to?

Either way you have the mass end of coil on a solid conductor that should act as a shield, because it prevents electric interference from passing.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

That 5% is connected to hot at one end through the rest of the coil, thus it cannot shield. No part of a cover (or any kind of shielding) is connected to hot.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

That 5% is connected to hot at one end through the rest of the coil, thus it cannot shield. No part of a cover (or any kind of shielding) is connected to hot.

A cover is connected to the same ground that goes through the coil. Both of them are connected through that 95% rest of the coil.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

But a cover is not connected to hot. If what you're saying was the case, then overwound coils would have less output instead of more because the outside turns (that 5%) would be more "outsider" than on a lower wound pickup, and there would be more of them to take more of the signal to ground. The coil is the DMZ through which neither "hotness" nor "groundness" can trespass. Hot and ground exist outside the coil, not in it.

But since you don't believe me there is a very simple test: Take a Strat pu or similar single coil and plug into the amp in an average to noisy electrical environment and listen. Then reverse the hot and ground leads and plug in again. See if you hear any difference. Until the results of this test are in, the explanation window is closed...

 

[uOpt]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

But a cover is not connected to hot. If what you're saying was the case, then overwound coils would have less output instead of more because the outside turns (that 5%) would be more "outsider" than on a lower wound pickup, and there would be more of them to take more of the signal to ground. The coil is the DMZ through which neither "hotness" nor "groundness" can trespass. Hot and ground exist outside the coil, not in it.

But since you don't believe me there is a very simple test: Take a Strat pu or similar single coil and plug into the amp in an average to noisy electrical environment and listen. Then reverse the hot and ground leads and plug in again. See if you hear any difference. Until the results of this test are in, the explanation window is closed...

Done that long ago. That test is difficult since the noise picked up by an entirely unguarded single coil is highly variable.

In any case, just imagine that there is a tap at those 95% and the last 5%, the outer layer is grounded on both sides. Is it a shield then?

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

Done that long ago. That test is difficult since the noise picked up by an entirely unguarded single coil is highly variable.

The electrical environment won't change because you throw a phase switch. If you can't hear any difference, then at the very least for all practical purposes there is no difference, rendering this whole conversation academic.

In any case, just imagine that there is a tap at those 95% and the last 5%, the outer layer is grounded on both sides. Is it a shield then?

If you mean the last 5% is grounded at both ends then yes, because electronically the 5% is no longer part of the coil. It will shunt all noise and signal it receives to ground. But as with any shield close to the coil, you'll find the tone of the remaining 95% dulled a bit.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Reverse wound versus out of phase

If you mean the last 5% is grounded at both ends then yes, because electronically the 5% is no longer part of the coil. It will shunt all noise and signal it receives to ground. But as with any shield close to the coil, you'll find the tone of the remaining 95% dulled a bit.

True. If you tap and ground you'll definitely now get eddy currents. However, my original point is that even without the ground in the tap you still have the outer winds connected to ground (in one phase wiring variant).

I'll make another attempt this weekend. Not sure what the wife planned, hopefully there's some time.