Rundown on magnets
- Thread starter jasona84
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blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Rundown on magnets
A magnet's effect is also impacted by the PU, guitar wood, amp, speaker, etc, all variables in the final formula, so there's no official laboratory side-by-side tests. There's a lot of old threads on magnets in this forum, so that's the place to start.
A magnet's effect is also impacted by the PU, guitar wood, amp, speaker, etc, all variables in the final formula, so there's no official laboratory side-by-side tests. There's a lot of old threads on magnets in this forum, so that's the place to start.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Rundown on magnets
Listen to your HB's, P-90's, and HB-sized P-90's (Phat Cats, etc) and determine if any of them need to have their EQ or output improved. A different magnet may move them in the direction you want, and save you the cost of a new PU. After you've read some old threads & gotten up to speed (which is what I did), contact Wymore Guitars.com & get an assortment of magnets, as you don't know what you'll need until you start swapping.
Most of the swaps I've done are:
Neck HB's that are too dark, dull, or lifeless. Pulled out the A2's and put in A5's; I'll sometimes use an A4 or A3 if the wood is on the bright side. You can take a muddy 490R (A2) & make it a well-defined PAF by putting in an A5.
Bridge HB's that need warmth and mids, & less treble; pulled out the A5's and put in A4's or A8's, to get a fuller, richer sound. This works well with 490T's, 498T's, C5's, '59's, and many more.
For A2 bridge HB's I'll want more output and better cut, so I use A8's. This works for a low output PGB, or a high output CC.
With ceramic HB's (which are too bright, sterile, and harsh for the music I play) I always put in an alnico, usually an A5 or A8 for color and warmth, and it still keeps the high output. A metal-oriented HB like a 500T or Custom can be turned into a nice classic rock or Chicago blues PU with alnicos.
Phat Cats have twin A2's, which are too dark on the neck, and too thin & weak on the bridge. I use A5/A3 and A5/A4 on neck PC's (more treble, definition, & sparkle), and A8/A4 on the bridge (more output, mids, and crunch). I probably have more Phat Cats than just about anyone on this forum, and I've taken the A2's out of every one of them.
Listen to your HB's, P-90's, and HB-sized P-90's (Phat Cats, etc) and determine if any of them need to have their EQ or output improved. A different magnet may move them in the direction you want, and save you the cost of a new PU. After you've read some old threads & gotten up to speed (which is what I did), contact Wymore Guitars.com & get an assortment of magnets, as you don't know what you'll need until you start swapping.
Most of the swaps I've done are:
Neck HB's that are too dark, dull, or lifeless. Pulled out the A2's and put in A5's; I'll sometimes use an A4 or A3 if the wood is on the bright side. You can take a muddy 490R (A2) & make it a well-defined PAF by putting in an A5.
Bridge HB's that need warmth and mids, & less treble; pulled out the A5's and put in A4's or A8's, to get a fuller, richer sound. This works well with 490T's, 498T's, C5's, '59's, and many more.
For A2 bridge HB's I'll want more output and better cut, so I use A8's. This works for a low output PGB, or a high output CC.
With ceramic HB's (which are too bright, sterile, and harsh for the music I play) I always put in an alnico, usually an A5 or A8 for color and warmth, and it still keeps the high output. A metal-oriented HB like a 500T or Custom can be turned into a nice classic rock or Chicago blues PU with alnicos.
Phat Cats have twin A2's, which are too dark on the neck, and too thin & weak on the bridge. I use A5/A3 and A5/A4 on neck PC's (more treble, definition, & sparkle), and A8/A4 on the bridge (more output, mids, and crunch). I probably have more Phat Cats than just about anyone on this forum, and I've taken the A2's out of every one of them.
wanmei1
New member
Re: Rundown on magnets
Here's an excellent post that bluemann did a short time ago regarding alnico magnet sound properties.
Common alnicos:
A2 - Rounded highs & lots of mids. Good harmonics. Loose low end. Low output. If a HB is wound to be bright, an A2 works in the neck slot. In a hot neck PU, an A2 will most likely make it muddy with flabby lows. In a bridge it has more virtues, & provides needed warmth and the low end isn't so noticeable. Some players call it's tones rude (in a good way).
A3 - Like a A2 but with a little more treble. Low output. Good substitute for an A2 PU when more treble is needed; can be used for bridge or neck. Since I like bright neck HB's, I think an A3 makes a better neck magnet than an A2.
A4 - Balanced EQ. Good replacement for an A5 when more mid & less treble is needed. Medium output. I use these mostly for warming bridge HB's that have stock A5's, but they can also be good in the neck in some guitars.
A5 - Scooped EQ; lots of treble & low end. The treble gives good definition and cut. Can be a little bassy in the neck position of some HB's (i.e. '59N in a LP). Very popular stock magnet in both neck and bridge HB's. High output.
A8 - Warm and smooth with lots of mids but the high end isn't as rounded as an A2, so there's more bite. Tighter low end. High output, which can be used to balance volumes with a neck PU. For most music styles, suitable for the bridge position only. Players are finding more uses for these, in high output HB's (Custom, JB, etc) and low output bridge PAF's. Interesting substitute for the A2 in a PGB or the A5 in a '59B.
That's the basics. If you have some HB's and the tones aren't quite what you want, get an assortment of replacement magnets and take a few minutes and swap some out.
Here's an excellent post that bluemann did a short time ago regarding alnico magnet sound properties.
Common alnicos:
A2 - Rounded highs & lots of mids. Good harmonics. Loose low end. Low output. If a HB is wound to be bright, an A2 works in the neck slot. In a hot neck PU, an A2 will most likely make it muddy with flabby lows. In a bridge it has more virtues, & provides needed warmth and the low end isn't so noticeable. Some players call it's tones rude (in a good way).
A3 - Like a A2 but with a little more treble. Low output. Good substitute for an A2 PU when more treble is needed; can be used for bridge or neck. Since I like bright neck HB's, I think an A3 makes a better neck magnet than an A2.
A4 - Balanced EQ. Good replacement for an A5 when more mid & less treble is needed. Medium output. I use these mostly for warming bridge HB's that have stock A5's, but they can also be good in the neck in some guitars.
A5 - Scooped EQ; lots of treble & low end. The treble gives good definition and cut. Can be a little bassy in the neck position of some HB's (i.e. '59N in a LP). Very popular stock magnet in both neck and bridge HB's. High output.
A8 - Warm and smooth with lots of mids but the high end isn't as rounded as an A2, so there's more bite. Tighter low end. High output, which can be used to balance volumes with a neck PU. For most music styles, suitable for the bridge position only. Players are finding more uses for these, in high output HB's (Custom, JB, etc) and low output bridge PAF's. Interesting substitute for the A2 in a PGB or the A5 in a '59B.
That's the basics. If you have some HB's and the tones aren't quite what you want, get an assortment of replacement magnets and take a few minutes and swap some out.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Rundown on magnets
So what HB's/P-90's do you have that you might want to tweak with magnets? As many here will agree, it's fun to take a so-so sounding PU and with a screwdriver & 10 minutes, turn it into something that sounds very good.
One qualifier is that you need to start with a high-quality PU as a foundation, American or European-made, like Seymour Duncan (not 'Duncan Designed'), DiMarzio, Gibson, Bare Knuckles, Carvin, Schaller, etc. The quality of Asian PU's is less than ideal; the materials not as good and workmanship is inconsistent, not to mention the 2 lbs of wax they stuff into each of their PU's. Sometimes you get one that sounds okay, but that's usually the best you can hope for. You'll still never get the clarity & definition of a high-quality PU (the old pig's ear & silk purse thing).
There are a lot of used PU's sold on eBay, often around half of the store price. I've gotten used Carvins & Schallers for $20 to $30; how can you go wrong! If you've got a few HB guitars, and a few extra PU's & magnets, you can take an evening & dial in some nice tones. Let us know if we can help you out.
So what HB's/P-90's do you have that you might want to tweak with magnets? As many here will agree, it's fun to take a so-so sounding PU and with a screwdriver & 10 minutes, turn it into something that sounds very good.
One qualifier is that you need to start with a high-quality PU as a foundation, American or European-made, like Seymour Duncan (not 'Duncan Designed'), DiMarzio, Gibson, Bare Knuckles, Carvin, Schaller, etc. The quality of Asian PU's is less than ideal; the materials not as good and workmanship is inconsistent, not to mention the 2 lbs of wax they stuff into each of their PU's. Sometimes you get one that sounds okay, but that's usually the best you can hope for. You'll still never get the clarity & definition of a high-quality PU (the old pig's ear & silk purse thing).
There are a lot of used PU's sold on eBay, often around half of the store price. I've gotten used Carvins & Schallers for $20 to $30; how can you go wrong! If you've got a few HB guitars, and a few extra PU's & magnets, you can take an evening & dial in some nice tones. Let us know if we can help you out.
Ark
New member
Re: Rundown on magnets
Thanks so much for posting this, that is what I was hoping to find here!!!
Thanks so much for posting this, that is what I was hoping to find here!!!
jasona84
New member
Re: Rundown on magnets
Hahah, yeah that little rundown was awesome. Well, first I plan on doing some mods to a JB in my Caparison Horus. It has a JB in it now which for a while was my go to pickup, but it's a little shrill, so I was thinking of cutting the screws through the pickup and seeing what happens. After that I was going to swap out the screws with a set of the large screws from an invader, then try hex screws and see what happens. After I get the tone from that I want I was going to try the A4 or A8 in it to see what happened. Then, my net mission is my 85 explorer, I was going to start with a stock invader and pull out some of the screws closest to the neck and put in some hex screws. Then I heard there are three different ceramic magnets in there if I'm not mistaken? I was going to drop in an A8 or three depending on that. Basically I like a really tight heavy, but not mid scooped, sound.
Hahah, yeah that little rundown was awesome. Well, first I plan on doing some mods to a JB in my Caparison Horus. It has a JB in it now which for a while was my go to pickup, but it's a little shrill, so I was thinking of cutting the screws through the pickup and seeing what happens. After that I was going to swap out the screws with a set of the large screws from an invader, then try hex screws and see what happens. After I get the tone from that I want I was going to try the A4 or A8 in it to see what happened. Then, my net mission is my 85 explorer, I was going to start with a stock invader and pull out some of the screws closest to the neck and put in some hex screws. Then I heard there are three different ceramic magnets in there if I'm not mistaken? I was going to drop in an A8 or three depending on that. Basically I like a really tight heavy, but not mid scooped, sound.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Rundown on magnets
I think the second & third magnets are probably small ones on the sides, and you probably can't find alnicos to replace them (if you do, let me know). You can still swap out the full-size center magnet with something warmer, like an A8.
I think the second & third magnets are probably small ones on the sides, and you probably can't find alnicos to replace them (if you do, let me know). You can still swap out the full-size center magnet with something warmer, like an A8.
jimijames
New member
Re: Rundown on magnets
You won't be able to put alnico magnets on the sides (or in the middle for that matter, with the possible exception of A8) because they're so thin they'll degauss themselves. Alnico magnets have to be at least a certain width, or they won't hold a charge for any reasonable amount of time.
edit: the reason SD uses ceramic is that it doesn't degauss as easily as Alnico, so if you put an A8 in the middle, you should make sure that it's stronger than the ceramic magnets on the sides, otherwise, the ceramics will begin to degauss the A8 the moment you put it in the invader... And degaussed A8 sounds like ceramic, but more harsh in the upper frequencies (I tried degaussing one once with a neo magnet, and it sounded worse and worse the lower in gauss it got)
You won't be able to put alnico magnets on the sides (or in the middle for that matter, with the possible exception of A8) because they're so thin they'll degauss themselves. Alnico magnets have to be at least a certain width, or they won't hold a charge for any reasonable amount of time.
edit: the reason SD uses ceramic is that it doesn't degauss as easily as Alnico, so if you put an A8 in the middle, you should make sure that it's stronger than the ceramic magnets on the sides, otherwise, the ceramics will begin to degauss the A8 the moment you put it in the invader... And degaussed A8 sounds like ceramic, but more harsh in the upper frequencies (I tried degaussing one once with a neo magnet, and it sounded worse and worse the lower in gauss it got)
super rad stuff
Skaforlifeologist
Re: Rundown on magnets
so then.... what does an up-guassed a8 sound like?
so then.... what does an up-guassed a8 sound like?
jimijames
New member
Re: Rundown on magnets
Well, like an A8. The neo magnet I have won't bring A8 to it's full gauss, you'd need an electromagnet to do that. But at the highest gauss I can achieve with the neo mags, it sounds like what everybody says it sounds like - Bass like ceramic, mids like A5 w/o the scoop, highs like A2 but with more bite. It just gets brighter and brighter as you degauss it.
Well, like an A8. The neo magnet I have won't bring A8 to it's full gauss, you'd need an electromagnet to do that. But at the highest gauss I can achieve with the neo mags, it sounds like what everybody says it sounds like - Bass like ceramic, mids like A5 w/o the scoop, highs like A2 but with more bite. It just gets brighter and brighter as you degauss it.
LtKojak
New member
Re: Rundown on magnets
If you're looking for a mod-friendly p'up, bear in mind that the Invader is just NOT one of them.
If you're looking for a mod-friendly p'up, bear in mind that the Invader is just NOT one of them.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Rundown on magnets
The vast majority are mod-friendly; Invaders are an exception.
However, where there's a will, there's a way. You can pull out the side magnets, replace them with spacers, & then use an alnico in the normal center slot.
The vast majority are mod-friendly; Invaders are an exception.
However, where there's a will, there's a way. You can pull out the side magnets, replace them with spacers, & then use an alnico in the normal center slot.
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Rundown on magnets
I respect other people's ears, but the above isn't what I hear.
My breakdown goes something like this:
The whole thing is also very position dependent (apart from play and guitar and rig dependent):
Also, it can be very hard to tell which magnet is in a humbucker. I can tell you which regular production Duncan has A2 or A5 all right, but with my boutique pickups, including SD Custom Shop and Ants, it becomes very tough. Some A2 boutiques, after magnet and coil tuning get a lot of transparency and airiness back and can mislead you. Some A5 boutiques, after magnet and coil tuning, can get a lot of the A2 qualities.
I respect other people's ears, but the above isn't what I hear.
My breakdown goes something like this:
- The main Alnicos are A2 and A5 for a reason. So let's look at them first.
- A5 has more treble, more bass and is noticeable clearer, glassier. The bass can quickly become too boomy. The treble can drift into a whimp like thing. The bass can be uncontrollable, undefined. You can tame down A5 but then it can become lame in the wrong guitar.
- A2 is more even and has more silky highs. In the wrong coils it loses too much treble. It's generally more controllable.
- A3 is easy to my ears: it sounds like a A5 equipped humbucker backed away from the strings
- A4 I don't quite like. It's somewhere between A2 and A5 but it misses what I call musical overtones. There is a certain playfulness in A2 and A5's highs that makes the sound more interesting and pleasing, and A4 lacks it.
- A8 is much stronger (the other all have about the same strength) and much louder. Like A4 it lack the same kind of musical overtones, but at least it brings something new to the table, which is a driven, roary quality. It doesn't compress like ceramic, so if you don't have a rig smoothing it out it won't be very pleasing.
- Ceramic is much colder than Alnico at quiet clean play (fingerpicking), but it compresses and smoothens out as you play harder. Michael Schenker with Duncan Custom and similar pickups is the best example. If you ever heard him live you know that with the right play a ceramic pickup that hasn't been driven too far (small magnet, medium coils) can be the roundest, fullest sound you ever heard.
The whole thing is also very position dependent (apart from play and guitar and rig dependent):
- I tend to like A5 in the neck because it gives me fingerpicking with a loudness effect (bass and treble), but I prefer A2 in the bridge because it's more controllable under medium gain. A5 in the neck also gives better high-gain "screech, screech, pling, pling" style leads. Still, in the end I like boutique pickups with A2 in the neck best (see below).
- I want soft, warm cleans, but if I have some Alnico in the neck it is not only fine but maybe also desirable to have the cold ceramic in the bridge. You can play a cold-hearted picking intro for a dark song using the bridge pickup and do the other clean stuff with the neck pickup you have anyway.
Also, it can be very hard to tell which magnet is in a humbucker. I can tell you which regular production Duncan has A2 or A5 all right, but with my boutique pickups, including SD Custom Shop and Ants, it becomes very tough. Some A2 boutiques, after magnet and coil tuning get a lot of transparency and airiness back and can mislead you. Some A5 boutiques, after magnet and coil tuning, can get a lot of the A2 qualities.
jimijames
New member
Re: Rundown on magnets
It's true, you can yank out the side magnets, just bear in mind that a big part of the invaders sound is the super-wide magnetic field it puts out because of those magnets. So if you like the way the invader sounds and are looking to tweak a specific frequency, then there are better methods than magnet swapping to get what you want. Because if you swap all that stuff out, the resulting pickup is going to sound pretty far removed from what the invader sounds like stock.
If you wanna experiment for the sake of experimentation, go for it! I personally encourage people to play the role of mad scientist and to "break new ground" (quotations b/c guitar technology hasn't really changed for 50+ years. Sure there's been a great deal of evolution, but I'm waiting for another revolution in how sound is transferred from the hands of the guitarist to the ears of the audience)
But yeah, go ape ****! Experimenting is fun, and who knows, you might just like the end result!
It's true, you can yank out the side magnets, just bear in mind that a big part of the invaders sound is the super-wide magnetic field it puts out because of those magnets. So if you like the way the invader sounds and are looking to tweak a specific frequency, then there are better methods than magnet swapping to get what you want. Because if you swap all that stuff out, the resulting pickup is going to sound pretty far removed from what the invader sounds like stock.
If you wanna experiment for the sake of experimentation, go for it! I personally encourage people to play the role of mad scientist and to "break new ground" (quotations b/c guitar technology hasn't really changed for 50+ years. Sure there's been a great deal of evolution, but I'm waiting for another revolution in how sound is transferred from the hands of the guitarist to the ears of the audience)
But yeah, go ape ****! Experimenting is fun, and who knows, you might just like the end result!
super rad stuff
Skaforlifeologist
Re: Rundown on magnets
actually, removing those side magnets would tighten up the magnetic field, therefore tightening up the invader's notoriously loose bass, right? because if that's the case...
actually, removing those side magnets would tighten up the magnetic field, therefore tightening up the invader's notoriously loose bass, right? because if that's the case...
