Running wireless means higher resonant frequency

B

Burnhaven

New member
Apparently the guitar cable plays a significant role in the "actual" resonant frequency of your pickup. For example, my JB jr is listed at 3.6 khz resonant frequency but a standard 10 foot cable may lower that to 2khz. I'm assuming this means that if I can't tame "spikey" frequencies with onboard pickup selections or tone controls, I'll need to EQ the "actual" frequency in my other gear. BUT, if you're running wireless??

My wireless rig has a cable emulator but I haven't been using that so far.

The Secrets of Electric Guitar Pickups

https://www.buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/


https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/product-news/pickup-comparison-chart

Great feedback from treefrog:

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...ng-Axe-combo&p=4347379&viewfull=1#post4347379

ResonantPeaks Etc.jpg
 
Re: Running wireless means higher resonant frequency

For what it is worth, I do hear a difference (and 'feel' a difference) between using my newer Boss wireless and a cable. One isn't better than the other, but they are certainly different, even if by a small amount.
 
Re: Running wireless means higher resonant frequency

Depends on the brand/model of wireless system involved but as a matter of fact, a wireless should transmit the signal as if there was 5 inches of cables only between the guitar and amp and it should brigthen the tone accordingly...

Now, all wireless transmitters aren't faithful sonically. They can impact the loudness and EQing of the signal, even without cable simulator - but the mere existence of such a simulator presupposes that a "direct" signal can indeed be too bright when we go wireless.

Another issues is that some effects need to "talk" directly with the guitar (germanium treble booster, fuzz face and so on).

Anyway and regarding the impact of cable lenght on tone, I use to share this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2sjeVQpS94


NOTES
-thx for the kind words but Bill Lawrence (RIP) talked about cables before freefrog... :-)
http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/All_About_Tone.htm/CableandSound.htm

-IMHO, Mincer is right about the tone being not better nor worse, just different: some musicians find low capacitance too bright but conversely some designers see the softening effect of cable capacitance as a problem (Bill Lawrence prized low impedance transducers for such reasons)... it's really a question of personal preference here.
 
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Re: Running wireless means higher resonant frequency

My wireless is the newish Line 6 Relay G10s. I'll probably use it 90% of the time I'm using this modified strat with the everything axe pickups. The other guitar is a Variax JTV59 running over a "VDI" cable so it's a completely different animal.

I'm not used to having to run the tone pots at less than 10. In the most recent test, that became 7 on the tone pots instead of 4 to make my ears happy ---- due mainly to backing off treble, mids and presence in the amp models. I'd like to be able to identify the resonant frequency, whether running a cable or wireless ( which still includes a 2 foot cable from base to Helix). So I'm thinking of running an empty Helix preset into a DAW using a VST like SPAN. Then I may try putting a parametric EQ at the beginning of my patches to "notch out" anything offensive before it hits the amp models etc. Yesterday I still noticed an odd tone when plucking the 3rd fret on the low E string --- backing off the bridge tone control to 7 got rid of it, but I'd rather not have to do that.


https://www.voxengo.com/product/span/
 
Re: Running wireless means higher resonant frequency

Sometimes it seems like juggling 12 flaming torches. :ninja: I was just reading about how the input impedance ( pickup loading) can be set in the Helix. Then you remember how it's your tone in a band mix that counts, and the Fletcher Munson effect. aaargh

"The auto setting changes the input impedance to the input impedance of whatever the first block in the chain is, it doesn't matter if it's on or off."

Right now my first block is always a compressor, but I'm considering putting a parametric EQ in front --- either way the first block would probably always be on.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...ion-on-helixs-auto-impedance-setting.1812152/
 
Re: Running wireless means higher resonant frequency

You’ve got to simplify this... if you only use the wireless, setup your tones to your preference for that. If you use cables and wireless and it’s really affecting the way you hear it, try to make a little cable with a small capacitor to ground to emulate the longer cable length. My impression is that everything after the wireless base station is just modeling anyway. You aren’t actually changing impedance in the Helix just extra Fourier transforms and algorithms to simulate stuff. If you need one master EQ to get it sounding the way you need, do that.
 
Re: Running wireless means higher resonant frequency

Burnhaven said:
My wireless is the newish Line 6 Relay G10s. I'll probably use it 90% of the time I'm using this modified strat with the everything axe pickups. The other guitar is a Variax JTV59 running over a "VDI" cable so it's a completely different animal.
Click to expand...

Ah, OK. One of my friends owns a G10 : I'll try to borrow it and to measure the resonant frequency of some PU's through it with our dedicated procedure.

In the meantime, the only thing that I can share is this:

Q: What Cable Tone length is the G10/G10S set to?
A: G10's Cable Tone is set to 10 feet on the 1/4" output only. The XLR output is full frequency range. These settings are not configurable. For the G10S, Cable Tone is switchable between Off (full frequency), 10 feet, and 30 feet.
Click to expand...

Source: https://line6.com/support/page/kb/live-sound/relay-digital-wireless/relay-g10g10s-faq-r808/

If it's true, we come back to my intuition: 10 Ft cable simulation = +/-500pF for average guitar cable = stray capacitance which combines with the inductance of the LJB / Lil' 59 and sets their resonant peak around 2khz...

FWIW: I own a Variax 500 (the first model, released in 2003). Before to mod it to death (by adding a 2d jack plug, some magnetic PU's and a GK3), I've tested it to death: according to my experiments, in the first Variax, guitar modeling was systematically emulating a 1nF (1000pF) capacitance; IOW, the 1st gen Variax emulates passive pickups as played through a 20' cable.
It's so true that I've used 6m cables with my "real" guitars in order to harmonize their tone with those modeled in my Variax... and it worked flawlessly.

If you want to emulate another lenght of cable than 10', it seems that you need to use the XLR output of your G10, so. In such a case, it should be possible to recreate a virtual cable capacitance if needed, by putting a simple cap in the short cable going from your guitar to the G10 emitter - for instance, if you want the sound due to a 20' cable, solder a small 1nF cap between hot and ground in the short cable; FWIW, that's almost exactly what I have in the short cable linking my magnetic pickups to the buffered guitar input of my various GK3's...


FWIW (= my two cents = not far from the price of a capacitor. LOL). :-)
 
Re: Running wireless means higher resonant frequency

The G10S has options for no cable emulation, 10 feet or 30 feet. I've been using none and running from its 1/4 out into the Helix 1/4 guitar input over a 2 foot cable.
So practicing and setting patches at home with a standard 10 foot cable makes a lot of sense :-)
Thanks for the all help. Making definite progress.

So new pickups, Helix just released a major firmware update AND I'm planning to run from Helix to powered speaker ( or PA) using the Helix xlr outputs set to mic level instead of the previous Line level from 1/4 out through direct box. Change 4 things and wonder which one fixed it or broke it. Nice to find others who don't mind getting down into the weeds.

When I post this sort of thing on the Helix facebook group I get "SERIOUSLY???"
 
Re: Running wireless means higher resonant frequency

I just played one of my existing patches, some chords, some single notes and Audacity produced this average spectrum

StratPickupsGloriaPatchSpectrum.jpg
 
Re: Running wireless means higher resonant frequency

Burnhaven said:
The G10S has options for no cable emulation, 10 feet or 30 feet. I've been using none and running from its 1/4 out into the Helix 1/4 guitar input over a 2 foot cable.
So practicing and setting patches at home with a standard 10 foot cable makes a lot of sense :-)
Thanks for the all help. Making definite progress.

So new pickups, Helix just released a major firmware update AND I'm planning to run from Helix to powered speaker ( or PA) using the Helix xlr outputs set to mic level instead of the previous Line level from 1/4 out through direct box. Change 4 things and wonder which one fixed it or broke it. Nice to find others who don't mind getting down into the weeds.

When I post this sort of thing on the Helix facebook group I get "SERIOUSLY???"
Click to expand...

Yes, SERIOUSLY! LOL.

So, if you don't use cable emulation, your pickups produce almost their maximum brigthness. Hence the possible interest to enable the cable emulation in the G10? It's up to you. Let us know.

If ever you dislike the fixed cable emulation offered by the G10, you've always the possibility to involve "real" capacitance by adding a small "cable emulator capacitor" between the hot and ground of the output jack in your guitar... Count +/-50pF per virtual foot of cable desired.
The only possible downside would be a tendency of your guitar to act like a radio antenna but with only one cheap component and two blobs of solders, it's not a mod difficult to try nor to undo if necessary. :-)

For the record, I post below the spectrum produced by a (full sized) SH4/ Jeff Beck, bridge position, played in chords from unfretted strings to 12th fret, through a 320pF cable (shorter than a 10', so), direct to the board. Let's keep in mind that fundamental notes never go higher than 1318.5hz on a standard guitar: anything above that is just harmonics, shaped by the resonant peak + the position of the pickup under the strings (according to a comb filtering effect explained here: http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/ ).

SH4inChords.jpg
 
Re: Running wireless means higher resonant frequency

Cable has more to do with capacitance than RF.
My G50 has a cable simulation as you can add or subtract to simulate a cable.
 
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