rusty transformers?

rashayritto

Off-Topic Lurker
hey guys. I recently got my hands on an old Laney AOR 100 watt head. It seems to be a 1987 model. I opened her up to find some cobwebs, dusty tubes, and kind of rusty transformers. It sounds fantastic but do you think i should have a tech give it a look? What other things should I take a look at when checking the condition of an older amp? I might take out the chasis today to see how clean the components and PCB are.

What do you recommend for cleaning grimey connectors in the power cord socket or jacks?

thanks for any advice
 
Re: rusty transformers?

DeOxit sprayed in/on all connectors will clean them right up.

DO NOT, under any circumstance remove any more than just the loose rust from the transformers. The result will be massive hysteresis losses and possible failure. Just brush off the loose rust and give them a coat of black Rustoleum paint to preserve the present condition.

It probably is due for a cap job...factor that in.
 
Re: rusty transformers?

thanks, what about grime that might be on circuit components like filter caps?

I wouldn't bother cleaning anything on the inside such as the circuit board but external components (such as cap cans) can be cleaned with a damp cloth and mild detergent.
 
Re: rusty transformers?

tube sockets and pots are the only components that really ever need cleaning. Rust on trannies may not be pretty, but doesn't adversly affect anything, infact in theory acts as insulation improving transformer function.
 
Re: rusty transformers?

Rust in steel is like a cavity in a tooth almost. It slowly eats away at the steel and eventually compromises it unless it is completely removed. Glassman gave you perfect advice on what to do by the way. Rust is not good for a transformer and it will eventually cause it to fail. Doing anything other than what Glassman listed will not help the transformer and could also cause it to fail. It's not the end of the world for the transformer, but it is eventually going to kill it one day. It's just a matter of how soon that happens.
 
Re: rusty transformers?

"Back in the early years, manufacturers of laminations intentionally exposed their iron to moist air to encourage rust to naturally form on the surfaces as an insulator! Like a fine patina on an antique bronze the rust on your transformer could be viewed as badge of honor."

Uh huh...see Glassman's post.
 
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Re: rusty transformers?

"If you are still bothered by the cosmetic aspect of rust, never scrape off the rust to the point of exposing bare metal because you will bring back those nasty eddy currents. Instead, brush off the loose particles and re-paint the area with varnish. If you want to send your transformer to Mercury, we can re-dip it in varnish and bake it for a small fee. Transformer evaluations are always no charge providing you cover the shipping costs to and from Mercury."
Well they say the same thing Glassman said, I'm just backing him up!
 
Re: rusty transformers?

Ok…I gotta chime in on this again.

While I don’t completely disagree with the information from Mercury, I find it isn’t adequately explaining what is going on when a transformer rusts. I will say that I feel they are accurate when they state that a rusted transformer can sound great. I have always felt that losses in transformers yield good tone…as long as they are controlled.

First, the rust (iron oxide) isn’t the problem; the transitional layer (amalgam) that lies between the oxide and the unaffected metal is the problem. Eddy current losses in a transformer are a function of the lamination thickness and the metallurgy of the steel. The amalgam layer is much thicker than the oxide layer and has undergone significant change to its metallurgy and grain structure. This can equal some hefty eddy current losses. It can also cause some significant hysteresis losses as well; this is the part that I feel adds to the tone of the amp in a positive way. Mercury makes no mention of this important attribute at all. Many references lump eddy current and hysteresis losses together; they are completely separate phenomenon.

Eddy current losses are the electrical equivalent of resistance, except it is in reference to magnetism. Eddy current impedes the flow of magnetism, effectively slowing it down and dissipating some of it as heat. All transformers that use paramagnetic steel laminations have some degree of eddy current loss. Eddy current losses are directly proportional to the thickness of the individual laminations.

Hysteresis losses are a bit more complicated; they are the resistance to changes in magnetic flux and flux density. Hysteresis losses change the shape of the waveform. This also results in heat but rather than being constant like eddy current losses, the degree of losses can change with load. This is the phenomenon commonly referred to as “saturation”, though saturation never occurs in any guitar amplifier. Hysteresis losses are directly proportional to the physical size of the lamination stack. This is why “big iron” often results in a “clinical” or “HiFi” tone while “smaller iron” sounds more organic and musical.

Finally, the oxide layer in transformer laminations is not iron oxide. I’m not saying that nobody in the history of transformer manufacturing hasn’t done it, I’m just saying that once the process starts, it is nearly impossible to stop it. Copper oxide and Sulfur oxide are far more controllable, though some anodic action can occur which can result in a transitional layer of its own. This is controllable by design.

A rusted transformer is not necessarily a bad thing…it is, however, a different thing…which can result in better tonal characteristics. But, it is the beginning of a death cycle…which may take years or decades to manifest.
 
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Re: rusty transformers?

A rusted transformer is not necessarily a bad thing…it is, however, a different thing…which can result in better tonal characteristics. But, it is the beginning of a death cycle…which may take years or decades to manifest.

So once the rust is there, what's the best way to test power & output transformers for "remaining shelf life" before they expire & take other bits & bobs along for the ride?

I've seen '60s blackface Fenders & '50s tweeds with tons of rust on the trannys and they still work... at what point is it obvious that death is near?
 
Re: rusty transformers?

So once the rust is there, what's the best way to test power & output transformers for "remaining shelf life" before they expire & take other bits & bobs along for the ride?

I've seen '60s blackface Fenders & '50s tweeds with tons of rust on the trannys and they still work... at what point is it obvious that death is near?

I really don't think there is a way to determine life expectancy. I think that with a little preservation (painting or re-dipping) the transformer could last indefinitely. One just needs to be mindful that a rusted transformer is going to generate more heat and won't be as efficient at getting rid of that accumulated heat as its non-rusted counterpart. Any failure is likely to be heat related and would be situational...dependent on how and under what conditions the amp is used.
 
Re: rusty transformers?

i have a feeling i should just have an expert take a look at this point. the rest is over my head
 
Re: rusty transformers?

the joys of internet forums!
lots of posters giving info of varying value.

:banghead:
 
Re: rusty transformers?

Ok…I gotta chime in on this again.

While I don’t completely disagree with the information from Mercury, I find it isn’t adequately explaining what is going on when a transformer rusts. I will say that I feel they are accurate when they state that a rusted transformer can sound great. I have always felt that losses in transformers yield good tone…as long as they are controlled.

First, the rust (iron oxide) isn’t the problem; the transitional layer (amalgam) that lies between the oxide and the unaffected metal is the problem. Eddy current losses in a transformer are a function of the lamination thickness and the metallurgy of the steel. The amalgam layer is much thicker than the oxide layer and has undergone significant change to its metallurgy and grain structure. This can equal some hefty eddy current losses. It can also cause some significant hysteresis losses as well; this is the part that I feel adds to the tone of the amp in a positive way. Mercury makes no mention of this important attribute at all. Many references lump eddy current and hysteresis losses together; they are completely separate phenomenon.

Eddy current losses are the electrical equivalent of resistance, except it is in reference to magnetism. Eddy current impedes the flow of magnetism, effectively slowing it down and dissipating some of it as heat. All transformers that use paramagnetic steel laminations have some degree of eddy current loss. Eddy current losses are directly proportional to the thickness of the individual laminations.

Hysteresis losses are a bit more complicated; they are the resistance to changes in magnetic flux and flux density. Hysteresis losses change the shape of the waveform. This also results in heat but rather than being constant like eddy current losses, the degree of losses can change with load. This is the phenomenon commonly referred to as “saturation”, though saturation never occurs in any guitar amplifier. Hysteresis losses are directly proportional to the physical size of the lamination stack. This is why “big iron” often results in a “clinical” or “HiFi” tone while “smaller iron” sounds more organic and musical.

Finally, the oxide layer in transformer laminations is not iron oxide. I’m not saying that nobody in the history of transformer manufacturing hasn’t done it, I’m just saying that once the process starts, it is nearly impossible to stop it. Copper oxide and Sulfur oxide are far more controllable, though some anodic action can occur which can result in a transitional layer of its own. This is controllable by design.

A rusted transformer is not necessarily a bad thing…it is, however, a different thing…which can result in better tonal characteristics. But, it is the beginning of a death cycle…which may take years or decades to manifest.

Good post....I have been schooled!
 
Re: rusty transformers?

the joys of internet forums!
lots of posters giving info of varying value.

:banghead:

True dat. I will reiterate my support of Glassman's input. He knows what he is talking about IMHO.

The only thing I contributed that was any different had to do with how rust is like cancer for steel and will spread unless completely removed. Rustoleum paint will slow it down a bit, but it won't stop it. The only thing that stops rust is complete removal and a nice paint job over the top of it.

It may be possible to send the transformer off to someone who refinishes guns and have them sandblast the transformer with really fine media mixed about 50/50 with crushed walnut shells. That will completely remove the rust, but those fine surface marks left behind may cause some weirdness with the magnetic properties of the steel. Once the steel is completely free of rust, it will hold paint well and will be spared from the eventual ravages of rust. You could go back over it with some clear lacquer or something and have a nice shiny transformer that should last for quite some time. I'll defer to Glassman on whether this is advisable or not though. Could be an issue for the transformer in some way that I'm not aware of.
 
Re: rusty transformers?

True dat. I will reiterate my support of Glassman's input. He knows what he is talking about IMHO.

Thanks!

The only thing I contributed that was any different had to do with how rust is like cancer for steel and will spread unless completely removed. Rustoleum paint will slow it down a bit, but it won't stop it. The only thing that stops rust is complete removal and a nice paint job over the top of it.

This is true.

It may be possible to send the transformer off to someone who refinishes guns and have them sandblast the transformer with really fine media mixed about 50/50 with crushed walnut shells. That will completely remove the rust, but those fine surface marks left behind may cause some weirdness with the magnetic properties of the steel. Once the steel is completely free of rust, it will hold paint well and will be spared from the eventual ravages of rust. You could go back over it with some clear lacquer or something and have a nice shiny transformer that should last for quite some time. I'll defer to Glassman on whether this is advisable or not though. Could be an issue for the transformer in some way that I'm not aware of.

The problem with media blasting, sanding or any other type of rust remediation on the laminations of a transformer is that the area that is de-rusted will have some level of electrical/magnetic continuity between laminations after it's cleaned. This will produce an area of high loss around the perimeter of the laminations. It's actually preferable to disturb this area as little as possible; as in let the rust be and minimize the oxidation potential by sealing the surface. The key is to maintain as much lamination segregation as possible.

An interesting note: owners of some Peavey amp models will notice that the transformers have a mounting plate welded directly to the laminations; this causes losses in the vicinity of the welds...losses that can make the amp sound more organic in some ways. This is one of the reasons that a transformer upgrade in a Peavey can have such a profound effect.
 
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