Saturation?

[Artie]

I didn't want to hijack the other thread.

I keep seeing the word "saturation" used in describing a pickups output character. What do you all mean by this?

Is this in reference to "Satch", as in Joe?

 

[Chistopher]

When I'm describing a distortion circuit, full saturation means that the input level is high enough that the output level and EQ will be mostly independent of the input level and EQ. A signal is saturated if the full bandwidth of the signal is being compressed by the lack of headroom, and the attack and sustain of the note are nearly the same volume. Basically it means your signal can't distort any further.

I would assume most people use it when talking about pickups to mean "compression" rather than saturation. I put compression in quotes because when people say a pickup compresses, I take it to mean that the treble and upper mids are rolled off in such a way that the attack of the note is less prominent. Pickups don't compress themselves as such and I don't know of any pickups that can saturate the input of an amp, but some high gain pedals will reach their saturation point way earlier on the gain knob with a high output humbucker rather than a underwound single coil. While a high output pickup may be able to boost a non-master volume amp into distortion easier, most modern equipment can reach a saturated distortion level with just about anything you plug into it.

 

[Seashore]

I'm super tired so I'm probably rambling, but I don't think it's directly describing the pickup, more like describing how a pickup makes an amp behave. It's another way of saying that (depending on the pickup and amp of course) higher output pickups need less preamp gain to push an amp into distortion. To me, a fully saturated sound is something in fuzz territory (not necessarily a fuzz tone though) where you get a lot of sustain and notes stay distorted as they trail off. (edit - Chistopher said it better) But beyond that, different characteristics become more apparent with high gain sounds, like the brash high end of a Duncan Distortion or the "grainy" quality of a 498T.

Saturation is an issue for me because a lot of bridge pickups don't have a sweet spot. Regardless of output level, when you throw them into enough gain to do the thing, they start to turn to mush. With some material that's ok, you're not really going to miss the clarity on power chords and it's fine for lead lines. You might even want a wooly tone. But if you want that clarity for arpeggiated chords with lots of notes ringing out, it can feel like playing with a blanket on your guitar, and the only way to get the clarity back is to turn down the gain, which is again ok for some material but makes for a weak sound on other parts. There's a compromise between saturation and clarity. On the other hand, my favorite bridge pickups let me dial in enough saturation to have the right feel for everything I play and enough clarity to play more complicated chords with busier rhythms without compromising. With the wrong pickups I'm constantly adjusting and tweaking my tone looking for a balance. With the right pickups, everything falls into place and I can just play.

 

[Artie]

That's along the lines of what I thought people were saying. Saturation kinda equals compression. But I wasn't sure.

 

[ErikH]

I think of saturation as clipping. The more distorted/overdriven it is, the more saturated it is. Compression is just one of the natural results of higher saturation/clipping.

 

[Chistopher]

I think of saturation as clipping. The more distorted/overdriven it is, the more saturated it is. Compression is just one of the natural results of higher saturation/clipping.

Saturation is a binary, it's either saturated or it isn't. If your signal is distorted so much as to be compressed to the same volume across the frequency spectrum it is saturated. The definition being the state or process that occurs when no more of something can be absorbed, combined with, or added. In this case meaning no more distortion can be added.​

 

[beaubrummels]

In guitar lingo, saturated means distorted to me.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Distorted or compressed. That's what I understand about it.

 

[ErikH]

Saturation is a binary, it's either saturated or it isn't. If your signal is distorted so much as to be compressed to the same volume across the frequency spectrum it is saturated. The definition being the state or process that occurs when no more of something can be absorbed, combined with, or added. In this case meaning no more distortion can be added.​

If there is clipping and it is not clean, meaning the sound wave is not rounded on top and bottom (the clipping), you have saturation. It’s simply a matter of how much there is. And yes, there is a max before everything falls apart. Depends on the circuit design, be it an amp or pedal.

 

[Juanhanglo]

I'm super tired so I'm probably rambling, but I don't think it's directly describing the pickup, more like describing how a pickup makes an amp behave. It's another way of saying that (depending on the pickup and amp of course) higher output pickups need less preamp gain to push an amp into distortion. To me, a fully saturated sound is something in fuzz territory (not necessarily a fuzz tone though) where you get a lot of sustain and notes stay distorted as they trail off. (edit - Chistopher said it better) But beyond that, different characteristics become more apparent with high gain sounds, like the brash high end of a Duncan Distortion or the "grainy" quality of a 498T.

Saturation is an issue for me because a lot of bridge pickups don't have a sweet spot. Regardless of output level, when you throw them into enough gain to do the thing, they start to turn to mush. With some material that's ok, you're not really going to miss the clarity on power chords and it's fine for lead lines. You might even want a wooly tone. But if you want that clarity for arpeggiated chords with lots of notes ringing out, it can feel like playing with a blanket on your guitar, and the only way to get the clarity back is to turn down the gain, which is again ok for some material but makes for a weak sound on other parts. There's a compromise between saturation and clarity. On the other hand, my favorite bridge pickups let me dial in enough saturation to have the right feel for everything I play and enough clarity to play more complicated chords with busier rhythms without compromising. With the wrong pickups I'm constantly adjusting and tweaking my tone looking for a balance. With the right pickups, everything falls into place and I can just play.

This is similar to my take on it.

Very few pickups compress on their own. Lace sensors come to mind. There comes a point where more attack does not bring a change in tone.

emgs can compress to, but internally.

passives? Not so much. They can have a soft attack but still be bright and have no compression. The paf joe for example.

saturation is an amp thing, and why higher output pickups cause it and not low ones.

I set my gain with my guitar on max, and then adjust it down to where I want it. I go from just past edge of break up to screaming high gain from my guitar.

Regarding mushy tone with gain: i found its all in the bass control, which is the main difference between my home and gigging tone. I dial it back for gigging. Ive always cut thru.

 

[Chistopher]

If there is clipping and it is not clean, meaning the sound wave is not rounded on top and bottom (the clipping), you have saturation. It’s simply a matter of how much there is. And yes, there is a max before everything falls apart. Depends on the circuit design, be it an amp or pedal.

Ah, that brings to mind a potential reason behind people having two understandings of the word.

You're using saturation to describe what the components are doing. Any clipping at all in a hard clipping circuit (this doesn't necessarily soft clipping, but that's another discussion) is because a gain stage is saturated in a given frequency band.

I'm using saturation to describe the signal as a whole. Asking if the signal can distort further.

 

[freefrog]

I've not replied yet because English is not my mother tongue but at first glance (after a quick partial reading) I feel at home with this page:

https://www.sageaudio.com/articles/whats-the-difference-between-distortion-and-saturation

Side notes:

-if more people were doing impulse response measurements, maybe it would be clearer that passive pickups seeming to "compress" the attack are not that rare: eddy currents tend to limit the amplitude of the first transient, for instance, and slower the response after that, leading a pickup with cover to react partly like the same pickup without cover but through a compressor @ subtle settings (I've a screenshot of such a comparison somewhere)... Same thing about coils with a high parasitic capacitance... or with a magnetic alloy like UOA5. IME.

-YMMV but personally, I wouldn't attribute exclusively to amps the distortion perceived from guitar pickups... Even plugged in a totally clean preamp, some transducers produce noticeably more / higher harmonics than others when excited to do that... while the harmonics of a sterile pickup can be enhanced by clipping diodes in parallel with it. Which implies that harmonically rich pickups sound as generating distortion by themselves.

FWIW: my 2 cents of thoughts to share.

 

[Artie]

FWIW: my 2 cents of thoughts to share.

I think that's worth at least a nickel.

 

[Aceman]

When I'm describing a distortion circuit, full saturation means that the input level is high enough that the output level and EQ will be mostly independent of the input level and EQ.

Exactly this.

I express this by saying "A 2x4 with a Super Distortion would sound like a Super Distortion"

 

[Bowtomecha]

I never liked pickup buzzwords because they tend to be vague or dependent on interpretation. I think people confuse saturation in a pickup for what happens between a pickup and the front end of an amp/preamp. I believe it to mean how a pickup has a reduced dynamic range between minimum and maximum output, where the attack and remainder of the signal have less difference in amplitude and harmonics across the duration of the note. In conjunction with the front end of an amp, I feel that’s more compression which seems to level the amplitude but more likely with the increasing harmonics of the note.

 

[Artie]

^^^^ I think that's a pretty good explanation.