Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

Sly_D

Sly_D

New member
I was searching for a way to lead on a Rid backtrack and I end up discovering that a particular pattern was working well, so I got to my favorite scale site to see if this was an existing scale, and it actually was.

Officially, this was the Phrygian A scale, but... the Mixolydian C seems to be the exact same thing. The Mixolydian scale seems to be a Prygian scale that would have slide three fret up the neck.

There seems to be many patterns that repeats themselves in several scales. When you're faced with a repeating pattern, I suppose the right name of the scale is related to the key of the song, right? So in the above example, if I'm in A, the scale I use would actually be the Prygian, whereas if I'm in C, it would be the Mixolydian?

Do I get this right? :dunno:
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

A phrygian and C mixolydian are just 2 modes out of 1 key. this particular key is F major or also known as D minor.
the pattern in those notes are the same because they both are related to D minor. the notes in D minor are:

D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C-D

A phrygian in order goes:

A-Bb-C-D-E-F-G-A

and C mixolydian are in order:

C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C

they're both different degrees in thekey of D minor

the modes are:

aeolian(other wise known as the minor scale)
locrian
ionian(other wise known as the major scale)
dorian
phyrgian
lydian
mixolydian

aeolian is the first degree of D minor
locrian is the 2nd degree
ionian is the third degree
dorian is the 4th degree
phrygian is the 5th degree
lydian is the 6th degree
mixolydian is the 7th degree
and then it comes to the octave
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

moom, my friend you blow me away. I never came across this explaination, go figure....

So, just to make sure...

All the modes are various degrees of a given key... in your example, it's Dm but if I took Am (or C) for instance, I would have:

A-B-C-D-E-F-G

and then this:

aeolian is the first degree of A minor (A-B-C-D-E-F-G)
locrian is the 2nd degree (B-C-D-E-F-G-A)
ionian is the third degree (C-D-E-F-G-A-B)
dorian is the 4th degree (D-E-F-G-A-B-C)
phrygian is the 5th degree (E-F-G-A-B-C-D)
lydian is the 6th degree (F-G-A-B-C-D-E)
mixolydian is the 7th degree (G-A-B-C-D-E-F)

Correct?
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

great explantion moom!
pretty much covered it.

i only have one thing to add, usually Ionian is reffered to as the 1st degree, and Aeolian(=natural minor) to its 6th. this is done when adressing the modes of the major(=ionian) scale.
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

about exploring modes:
you can see the difference between the various modes, by comparing them to the Major scale.
the major/ionian scale consists of the degrees: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
lets try to see how Dorian is in comparison to the Ionian: 1 - 2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - 6 -b7
(b3 = minor/flat third)
you can do this with all modes, and it would give you a better idea of their "feel" if you understand the sound of each degree in the scale.

another way to approach it is to take triads and arpeggios from the scale to see what chords the scale would fit into, and find what i like to call the "signature chord" of the mode. in dorian it would be a min6 or min7 chord, like Cm6, Am7.

a second example of what i said above:
Lydian would be 1 - 2 - 3 - #4 - 5 - 6 - 7
that sharp 4th is the only difference between Lydian and Ionian, and its what gives Lydian that "dreamy" "cheerful" (it may sound different to anyone) feel.
if we mess around with the triads and try playing Lydian over the different chords you can see Maj and Maj'7 are the chords he's best to played on.
Lydians "signature chord" is Maj'7#11 (the #11 comes from the #4 the intervals in a Maj7#11 chord would be 1 - 3 - (5) - 7 - (9) - #11. the degrees in ()'s are ones that are not essential to the chord)
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

...over my head.

Looks like Bee has to go back to basics... ! :p

Don't take your knowledge for granted... right now I'm thinking about how frustrating it is!
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

Thanks DiminisheD-7th, you just showed me what I had a problem understanding from the start. Since the interval change from one mode to another, I thaught that the pattern on the guitar changed also. I just realized that the pattern on the guitar is the same for all 7 modes, you just have to slide the pattern up and down the neck. You then get all the interval variations... this is what confiused me in the first place.

You 15 year-olds are beating the crap out of me :D

You've learned the right way, good for you. Thanks to you both of you pals, you just open a window to a whole new world in my head! :)
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

i was like that too, Sly , only a few monthes ago i think. you dont see it that way atfirst but when you do its like "D'OH! OFCOURSE!"
glad i could help out bro
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

Jesus, I never even heard of a major scale at 15 never mind understanding modes, i still dont even understand em fully, that is the part that where you can understnd how you can play say an A-Locrian over a B flat diminished 7th augmented majinor (*&*^%( chord..??
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

This is were we have to have the humility to leave alone the part we don't get for now :D Otherwise, we'll stare at our guitar like a cow at a passing train and do nothing :laugh2:

I don't necessarily get which mode goes best with which chord pattern. One thing at a time, I JUST undestood modes correctly... at 37, your brain works perfectly well but it starts to get lousy and you're satisfied of learning one thing a day :)
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

Sly_D said:
I don't necessarily get which mode goes best with which chord pattern. One thing at a time, I JUST undestood modes correctly... at 37, your brain works perfectly well but it starts to get lousy and you're satisfied of learning one thing a day :)
Click to expand...

well the way i see it is like this.

in a key you have 7 chords, starting from major you have (1)major, (2)minor, (3)minor, (4)major, (5) major, (6)minor, (7) halfdimished

so say when you play a C major 7 chord

--7--
--8--
--9--
--9--
--X--
--8--

how many possibilities do you have?
well according to pattern above, you have 2.

you could consider it going with the ionian mode or you could consider it goint with the lydian mode. the reason why it wouldn't be mixolydian is because the intervalic pattern wont come out to a major 7 chord, it would come out to a 7, or dominant 7th, chord.

so you have the two options of Ionian or lydian. most people would just go with ionian to get that normal happy, major sound. but other people would pick lydian. in usually pick lydian because the 1st 4 notes give off kind of a whole tone feel to it which i like alot.
as you know, the lydian mode's intervals are:

4-5-6-7-1-2-3

and teh ionian mode's intervals are:

1-2-3-4-5-6-7

thish ia depends on what sounds best to you. but i like using diferent modes to different chords.

now if you were to have a chord such as C7

--8--
--8--
--9--
--8--
--10-
--8--

the only option (as far as modes go) would be the mixolydian mode, unless you wanted to on out ans use different scales such as harmonic minor or melodic minor. but thats a different story.

this idea works for every where on the fret board. for minor, instead of using the standard aeolian i like to use dorian instead. i think it gives a much more melodic sound to it.

so if I have an A minor 7 chord

--5--
--5--
--5--
--5--
--X--
--5--

in a kind of latin, sounding chord progression i could use dorian. t just sounds better to me, cause you have that dominant 7 chord in there. the D7 chord which can be outlined.

there are so many ideas out there. and each mode will give you a different sound.
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

Man, you're like a freaking walking book! :)

Thanks man, maybe I should try to buy a book about scales and modes. If anyone has a good title, send it in!

Thanks moom, you're very helpful... this is getting much clearer now.
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

your welcome man!

but remember, a teacher can help[ 10 fold more than a book can :cool:

but i hear the guitarists grimoir is a good book
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

nice way of thinking moom.
i can recommend a book called "Improvisation Made Easier" by Frank Gambale.

heres a little more about what i started saying earlier, i hope i can shed some more light on this subject:
fitting modes to chords.. bassicaly you could play all major modes on a major chord, and you would choose which one to use according to the way the entire progression or part of it sounds. however, the more "tensions" you add to the chord, the more specific your mode of choice will be.
and this is where my "signature chord" theory comes in. if you take a scale and start making chord out of the degrees it consists you'll get the ideal chord for the scale (because that chord will contain the key degrees of the scale).
you can use alot of degrees from the scale.

for example Phrygian could be used over any minor chord.
phrygian consists of: 1 - b2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b6 - b7 - 1
you can see how it would fit on a minor7 chord because it contains the degrees 1 - b3 - 5 - b7.
you can also play the Aeolian and Dorian modes on those minor7 chords, simply because they too, have those degrees.
however if you get a min7b9 chord (uses the degrees 1 - b3 - 5 - b7 - b9[b2] that appear in the scale), it would definatly sound right to play Phrygian on it.
a similar thing will be a 7sus4b9 chord.

hope this makes any sence
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

ok this is way over my head..

the music i compose appears in my head and i work it out on piano then score it.. i dont think in "modes" i find it constricting..

as for guitar i play by feel, and learn the key that i'm in all over the neck so i know where i'm going.

that being said i have started learning more theory for guitar, i got a book on it the other week and its helped me get out of the "comfort box" on gutiar.
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

DiminisheD-7th said:
nice way of thinking moom.
i can recommend a book called "Improvisation Made Easier" by Frank Gambale.

heres a little more about what i started saying earlier, i hope i can shed some more light on this subject:
fitting modes to chords.. bassicaly you could play all major modes on a major chord, and you would choose which one to use according to the way the entire progression or part of it sounds. however, the more "tensions" you add to the chord, the more specific your mode of choice will be.
and this is where my "signature chord" theory comes in. if you take a scale and start making chord out of the degrees it consists you'll get the ideal chord for the scale (because that chord will contain the key degrees of the scale).
you can use alot of degrees from the scale.

for example Phrygian could be used over any minor chord.
phrygian consists of: 1 - b2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b6 - b7 - 1
you can see how it would fit on a minor7 chord because it contains the degrees 1 - b3 - 5 - b7.
you can also play the Aeolian and Dorian modes on those minor7 chords, simply because they too, have those degrees.
however if you get a min7b9 chord (uses the degrees 1 - b3 - 5 - b7 - b9[b2] that appear in the scale), it would definatly sound right to play Phrygian on it.
a similar thing will be a 7sus4b9 chord.

hope this makes any sence
Click to expand...

saying that i was in E phrygian, that chord would look something like this:

--12--
--15--
--12--
--15--
--14--
--12--

it's a minor chord showed by the presence of the G note, it's a bIX chord by presence of the F note, and a VII by presence of the D :cool:

and im guessing the 7sus4b9 chord would be

--12--
--15--
--14--
--15--
--14--
--12--

if my memory serves me correctly
the 7th is shown by the D note, the sus4 is shown by the presence of the A and not the third, and the b9 is by the F note.

sounds cool though
 
Re: Scale question: Phrygian and Mixolydian?

oh, by the way. what i said above with aeolian being the 1st degree. that would be true in the case that we're in a minor key. though this depends on the chord progression your playing. so if you have a 1,4,5 chord progression of G, C, D your not going to say that you're in E minor. though, tchnically you are, seeing as G major and E minor are just relatives of eachother. you'd say it's in G major.
just wanted to get that out :D
 
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