scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

[walters]

How many different ways did fender use the scatter pattern?

Since the pickups in the 50's and 60's were hand wound the scatter pattern
can be many different ways like how can u hand wind a pickup doing different scatter patterns please?

The wire used in the 50's was Heavy Formvar
The Wire used in the 60's was plain enamel

Whats the difference between Formvar VS Enamel?

Does the Scatter pattern produce different pickup outputs?

jaguar and rickenbacker they have the metal bars and shields > around the pickups to induce the flux and magnetized more?

 

[Rev Donzo]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

Greetings Walters -- how is your day going sir?

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Q-1-How many different ways did fender use the scatter pattern?

A-1-Well it was ladies doing the winding for the most part, each one had their own way and I'm sure it evolved as time went on. being it was human's doing the winding the it was a different pattern for every hand wound pup ever made.-- duplicating a 6000 turn pattern - turn for turn at that speed is imposible for a human being.
(moreover there was "Styles" but no replicated precise patterns)
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Q-2-Since the pickups in the 50's and 60's were hand wound the scatter pattern
can be many different ways like how can u hand wind a pickup doing different scatter patterns please?

A-2- yes those are know as trade secrets amoung us winders, You can find these patterns by unwinding old dead fender pickups, and by testing fast scatters VS, Slow scatters..etc.. again your getting into trade secrets--
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Q-3-The wire used in the 50's was Heavy Formvar
The Wire used in the 60's was plain enamel

A-3-Double Fomvar was used starting with the birth of 1954 Strats untill 1964
Also: Telcasters were plain Enamel from its birth 1950 -- those went to Poly way later.
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Q-4- Whats the difference between ("heavy" double build )Formvar VS Enamel?
A-4-Fomvar is darker sounding of the two.
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Q-5-Does the Scatter pattern produce different pickup outputs?

A-5- I have heard it can -- but myself and a few others have yet to actually hear it.
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Q-6-jaguar and rickenbacker they have the metal bars and shields > around the pickups to induce the flux and magnetized more?

A-6- on the Jag the metal teeth was an attempt to curb 60 cycle hum.
On the Rick Toaster I found no added metal to speak of.
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Cheer's
I hope you have an enjoyable evening sir.
Rev.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

What's this? You two are getting along now? (faints)

 

[walters]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

Thanks alot Rev for the information how was your gig last night ? what type of gear you use? is your pickups special or custom by you ?

I was thinking about uses these Antiquity II Surfers pickups in my strat
to try out maybe i can get some surf tones out of these pickups


The Scatter pattern makes the LCR different because mostly the inductance and capacitance and resistance are in parallel when winding a pickup but
when doing different scatter patterns it changes the inductance and capacitance and resistance to get like series/parallel combinations. The scatter pattern produces different kinds of series/parallel coil turns.

What are winding "Styles" Vs patterns?

 

[walters]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

Whats the difference between fast scatters VS Slow scatters please?

 

[Rev Donzo]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

Q-Thanks alot Rev for the information
A- no problem.
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Q- how was your gig last night ?

A- Bad Night ( just a 2 song Blues Jam- open mic anyways) --

Q-what type of gear you use? is your pickups special or custom by you ?
Rev-Broadcaster bridge / 5-2 tele Neck / Vibrolux amp / Route 66 pedal / slap back echo / Chours .. ( my pickups are wound for 1950 retro sounds -- I use them a little bit when I plug straight in -- but the Duncans are 90% of the time )
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Q-I was thinking about uses these Antiquity II Surfers pickups in my strat
to try out maybe i can get some surf tones out of these pickups.

A- yes - turn up the reverb and alternate picking -- try picking back by the bridge - and then try some palm muting when your picking foward of the bridge. ( the Jaguar guitar has that manual Muting lever -- Surf Guitarist use that often)
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Q- The Scatter pattern makes the LCR different because mostly the inductance and capacitance and resistance are in parallel when winding a pickup but
when doing different scatter patterns it changes the inductance and capacitance and resistance to get like series/parallel combinations. The scatter pattern produces different kinds of series/parallel coil turns.
A- I'm not sure here?
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Q-What are winding "Styles" Vs patterns?
A- a pattern would be Identical -- a style would be close to the same thing over - and over.
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Cheer's

 

[walters]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

Thanks Rev

When winding Scatter patterns the DC resistance measures the same but the
LCR changes values?

when winding Scatter patterns or styles the LCR changes values?

The fender Custom Shop opened up SRV guitar and found out the pickups were stock 1963 pickup when measure the DC resistance but the difference is the Scatter winding pattern or style can change the LCR values and resonance frequency?

 

[Rev Donzo]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

Q-When winding Scatter patterns the DC resistance measures the same but the
LCR changes values?

A- yes I think you can state that? ( you seem to perfer to use the term LCR -- I guess thats right)
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Q-The fender Custom Shop opened up SRV's guitar and found out the pickups were stock 1963 pickup when measure the DC resistance but the difference is the Scatter winding pattern or style can change the LCR values and resonance frequency?
A- yes I think I know that pattern -- there seemed to be one lady there who had and outstanding pattern -- I think she may have wound SRV's and also Roy Buchanan's. -- I have applied it to some test pups here and I have seemed to have gotten closer to it then most anyones ever been able to that we know of.
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cheer's

 

[walters]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

Thanks Rev

What does the Scatter pattern do really to the pickup?

What does the Scatter pattern change? the inductance? the capacitance? the resistance? the resonance frequency?

 

[Rev Donzo]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

Q-What does the Scatter pattern do really to the pickup?

A- they say it allows better high end, it prevents the coils from bleeding into one another that ghost thing- where the machine wound side by side coil will bleed into itself and ruin the highs.
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Q-What does the Scatter pattern change? the inductance? the capacitance? the resistance? the resonance frequency?
A- all the above and it's also changed by coil size and shape and coating thickness.
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cheers

 

[Corbic]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

What's this? You two are getting along now? (faints)

Seriously...this is kinda creepy? Who are you two and what have you done with the real walters and Rev? :laugh2:

But yeah, its good to see you guys getting along for once. And this pickup stuff is kinda interesting...even if it mostly confuses me :smack:

 

[walters]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

Whats the difference between fast scatters VS Slow scatters please?

Scatter windng changes the coil size and shape and coating thickness

What does changing the coil size or coil shape do ?

What u mean by coil shape?

What does the Coating Thickness do ?

 

[Rev Donzo]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

it's all good, Walters is not who I thought he was.. and I am sorry for thinking he was not cool in the first place!

If ya knew Walters like some of you do here-- you would know he is REALLY COOL!

he's much nicer then I have ever been..

( sorry to be talkin about ya as a third party here Walters-- but we did have a bit of a Flame War -- and I see folks want to know how the fire went out?)

anyways lets just say the more enjoyable it is here for all of us then all the better.

cheer's
REV.
( even this ol' dog is still learning life's lessons bros)

 

[walters]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

It's ok im glad you changes to help out people with questions and my questions don't just help me it helps other readers also to learn from so they can use my threads as a learning tool for pickups

 

[gripweed]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

I'm glad things are cool now. This was a very interesting thread (for a geek like me @ least:laugh2: .)

 

[Rev Donzo]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

True! -- Let's Learn..
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Q-Whats the difference between fast scatters VS Slow scatters please?

A-Fast makes it sound brighter, slow it will sound darker, even though both will have the same Ohms.
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Q-Scatter windng changes the coil size and shape and coating thickness,
What does changing the coil size or coil shape do ?

A-it can help focus the sound, IE a narrow coil Vs. the wide un focused P-90 Coil. It can also add mids and a nice Bark to the note... but that one I cannot disclose because it's one of my trade secrets. that give me an edge up.
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Q___ What u mean by coil shape?,
A___ P-90 Vs- Strat ..etc.. still I'm getting close to telling my secrets when it comes to coil shaping.
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Q-What does the Coating Thickness do ?

A- the double build coating tends to be darker -- some claim they hear no differance though.
Also: you can hardly wind a Strat to 6K with the double build fomvar. and still get the cover to slide over the coil.
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Cheer's
And thanks for being kind here everyone!
REV.

 

[walters]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

Thanks for the information Rev yea i don't want to know the trade mark secrets because thats information u learn through years and i understand that but just a concept of what u have been doing for me is good

Whats the difference between narrow coil Vs. the wide coil?

Wouldn't the magnet size be the coil size?

Because how can i change the coil size when the magnet size is so big or so small unless u layer and layer the coil wires alot i'm guessing

 

[Rev Donzo]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

Thank's
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Q-Whats the difference between narrow coil Vs. the wide coil?

A- a wide thin coil "see's" more of the strings and is less focused.
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Q-Wouldn't the magnet size be the coil size?

A- No -- However the magnet does have to cover the pole pieces,

:Then we have the Rickenbacker Horseshoe magnet pickups and the old Charlie Christian 1940's stuff those have huge magnets..
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Q- Because how can i change the coil size when the magnet size is so big or so small unless u layer and layer the coil wires alot i'm guessing

A- no not really -- look at the Fralin & others who used the two P-90 bar magnets under a Strat pickup which has steel pole pieces.
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Sorry,
Gotta sign off till tomorow, -- I'm leaving to go play again.

Have a nice night folks,
REV.

 

[Artie]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

Very informative post Rev. Great info.

Artie

 

[walters]

Re: scatter pattern 50's and 60's pickups

Yea thanks alot Rev for your information and time this kind of information is learned for experienced and passed down and its get to have in a thread so everyone can learn from it