Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

OK.
Darthphineous, the scatter wound one you have, is it SD or BNP or other?
Understand about not telling MJ what to do. Just what I want. I would like one coil higher than the other, I think a total of 10 or less resistence. I would most certainly ask her about it, I would never dictate to MJ about anything. I love MJ, she is nice, thoughtful, and listens very well, I just wanted some more knowledge.
Nobody answered my question about the different sounds of scatter vs. Lessona. Hand guide vs. machine I guess is how I should have asked. That shows I know so little about it I didn't ask in a way that you guys understood. So again: I will ask it like this. Can and will anyone tell me what's the difference in sound between Hand guided (scatter) and Even (Lessona)?
Edgecrusher, I dislike A2's. So I believe asking for a different mag would be just fine. Only A2 I ever heard I liked was a Pearly gates. Again, I understand about not tying MJ's hands. Never said I would, just thinking out loud about winding questions.
As far as I know, I don't think SD has any RCA5 or UOA5. That would be on me. She made me one with an A4 I love still. Just would like a more "crunchy sound" and I bet uneven coils would help. A little hotter wind. That's all.
SJ
 
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Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

can't speak for that phineous guy, but I have scatter wound pickups from multiple pickup winders.

once again, as people have suggested, don't tell a winder how to do their job. just describe the sound you want.
 
Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Why do you keep bringing up MJ, I already said I would not tell her how to do her job.
That was not what I asked. It appears no one is listening to me. There is no rant here, all I asked is on post 21: Does anyone know the diff in sound between scatter and not.
SJ
 
Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Winders are the best source of info here. Because there are almost infinite ways to change up winding a pickup, how it is done will determine the tonal outcome. Think of winding a hose on a reel.....most pickup will wind it on nice and neat with each turn added on right next to the other. But if you start going random it can be done differently practically every time. So there is never one version of scatter.
I'd guess that any winder doing this sort of wind would find a good proportion of this effect being horrible, and a certain small percentage making it sound incredible. But that would also work with the way that particular lays down their own pickup wire......so it is unique to each brand.
So hardwon wind patterns is not something any winder would ever part with, but I've heard plenty of info from individual winders on what they find with thier own winds. But thats of course when you start a dialogue with them or if they are generous with their knowledge in open forums. Both David from Zhangbucker and James from ReWind are very generous with that sort of info both here and on MLP.

As you are wanting info on Seths, it is best to ask MJ what the difference would be.
 
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Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

SJ318 said:
Why do you keep bringing up MJ, I already said I would not tell her how to do her job.
That was not what I asked. It appears no one is listening to me. There is no rant here, all I asked is on post 21: Does anyone know the diff in sound between scatter and not.
SJ
Click to expand...

Scatter winding isn't even really a thing with PAFs. The originals were wound with machine winders such as the Leesona. All that scatter wind business is mostly in reference to Fender style pickups. A PAF bobbin is a lot thinner and smaller than a Strat pickup so there's not as much space to deliberately scatter the wire. I've also heard that hand tensioning a PAF bobbin increases the chances that the coil will be too fat and overrun the plastic. I think you want a machine wound pickup in any case, I supposed the question is which machine, or what tension. I don't think it really matters, personally.
 
Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Nobody answered my question about the different sounds of scatter vs. Lessona. Hand guide vs. machine I guess is how I should have asked.
Click to expand...

Hi Steve,

See the FAQ number 17,18 & 19 here, for example: https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/faq.php

I mention this link because my own experience with hand and machine wound HB's (musically and technically) matches what the answer 19 says - with the only difference that I don't necessarily find hand wound HB's "better": all depends on the tonal character desired.

There's also loads of info on the music-electronics forum (pickup makers section) - even if many screenshots disappear after a while, making some topics almost useless...

Here is an example among many others: http://music-electronics-forum.com/t26538/

Hope to be useful.
 
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Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

The bareknucklepickup FAQ is very misleading. It says that the "Scatterwinding by hand can be time consuming but it has many advantages over conventional machine winding", but all of the "many" advantages boil down to one: reduced capacitance.

They say the reduced capacitance increases the resonance peak, making the response flatter... but that's what ALL low output pickups do. That's what makes an SSL-1 and SSL-1 and not an SSL-5. Does an SSL-1 have "far superior sound", to borrow bare knuckle's own words? No, this technical aspect of a pickup is purely a matter of preference.

But then the second link to MEF, has a post making a great point that refutes the whole benefit of reduced capacitance: "If I understand correctly, the normal tension has both higher inductance the higher resonant frequency. This means that it has lower capacitance. But the differences caused by small changes in coil capacitance are swamped out by the much larger cable capacitance. This leaves only a small change in resistance to explain any differences. I think the differences in sound are quite small."

Suppose you save yourself 20pF capacitance by scatter winding the crap out of a coil. Here comes Mr. guitar cable with 500pF, or more, of capacitance. It turns that 20pF savings into nothing.
 
Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Steve,

I've not enough free time to post many data but I've forgotten to precise that I've already compared hand wound vs machine wound HB's, all other parts being equal (same baseplates, slugs, screw poles, keeper bars, magnets, braided shielded coaxial cables, and even the same maple spacer or lil' brass screws to hold the coils).
Of course, these pickups have been tried in the same guitar, with the same wiring harness, through the same cable and so on. The tonal difference was not less than striking - but this precision is probably useless for anyone who has built and/or tested himself hand wound vs machine wound HB's. . :-)

More later maybe (I've someone illl at home right now and can't afford to waste my energy in an online discussion) but there's MANY other possible readings about scatter winding, that you might find interesting once you ignore their advertising content. . Examples:

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...uitar-pickups-intro-and-sale-for-tgp.1141663/ (second answer)

http://schuylerdeanguitars.blogspot.fr/2010/05/what-is-scatter-winding-anyway.html

Once again, hope to be helpful (that's really the only reason to post here in my case).
 
Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

AlexR, devestone, thanaton, freefrog, darthphineous,
Thank you!
That is what I was looking for. This is all the info and links I need. Good job, and very much appreciated!
Steve Buffington
 
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Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Hi, again,
Several folks said WLH, so I looked it up, and it sounds like what I am after. 8.8 resitence, roughcast A5, and that
mysterious "Seymore Duncan" wind may be a setting on the machine, I will ask MJ. So, to whomever mentioned it, that sounds just about right. Any negatives to users of this p'up.
I did not know they used RCA5 at the shop. This could make it great, but I would ask MJ if I could have it unpotted. ( not looking for unpotted vs. potted discussion ), I just like unpotted for whatever reason my ear tells me.
Steve Buffington.
 
Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

thanaton said:
The bareknucklepickup FAQ is very misleading. It says that the "Scatterwinding by hand can be time consuming but it has many advantages over conventional machine winding", but all of the "many" advantages boil down to one: reduced capacitance
Click to expand...
Yes and no. One point I've made in a few outlets over the years is that the lower distributed capacitance can be targeted either by randomizing the layering (scatter) but also by using thicker insulation, which also increases the gap between the winding. But the two do not produce the "same" result by any means. You could also lower it by reducing the number of turns per layer. That'll reduce crosstalk as well. But those three pickups will not sound the same. And yes, EVEN if the turn count on all three are manipulated to produce the same resonant peak. The Q's will be different but I'll address the frequency relationships below.

thanaton said:
They say the reduced capacitance increases the resonance peak, making the response flatter... but that's what ALL low output pickups do. That's what makes an SSL-1 and SSL-1 and not an SSL-5. Does an SSL-1 have "far superior sound", to borrow bare knuckle's own words? No, this technical aspect of a pickup is purely a matter of preference.
Click to expand...
Again yes and no. The use of the word better or "far superior" is an opinion, which means some will agree, some won't. There are some positions that carry very large majorities, like new(er) strings sound "better" than rusty, decade-old strings with finger oils caked between the winds. But even that's not 100%.

However if you're suggesting a lower wind (turn count) as a surrogate for the resonant peak shifts obtained through scatter, insulation thickness, and/or pitch, that's even more different than those 3. And the SSL1 has a different wire gauge than the SSL5, which again dwarfs the subtlety of any patten or insulation thickness changes.

thanaton said:
TBut then the second link to MEF, has a post making a great point that refutes the whole benefit of reduced capacitance: "If I understand correctly, the normal tension has both higher inductance the higher resonant frequency. This means that it has lower capacitance. But the differences caused by small changes in coil capacitance are swamped out by the much larger cable capacitance. This leaves only a small change in resistance to explain any differences. I think the differences in sound are quite small."

Suppose you save yourself 20pF capacitance by scatter winding the crap out of a coil. Here comes Mr. guitar cable with 500pF, or more, of capacitance. It turns that 20pF savings into nothing.
Click to expand...
Yeah that part is just fodder. It's like saying your engine performance doesn't matter if your tires are bald. The two are not the same. Distributed capacitance within a coil is also related to phase smearing and other time constant anomalies. Cable capacitance takes THAT, and just knocks the peak down proportionately, but does not manipulate the relationships between frequency bands, nor can it undo any combing. If that quote were true, if all that mattered was the Q and peak frequency of a pickup, then the whole world could just live off of one high peak coil design, with R/C networks and make up gain. But these other subtle differences all become very meaningful to the player.
 
Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

SJ318 said:
Hi,
Am looking for a clean-up-able p'up that is a touch hotter than stock Seth b. with that mysterious description "Bite, Crunchy, Edgy" sound.
I like uneven coil winds, and love Seth's.
Steve
Click to expand...

Hi Steve. I think you could achieve that goal easily by making a hybrid with a Seth and a medium output bridge humbucker like the Screamin Demon or the Jason Becker. Both are PAFs that are a little cleaner and hotter than the Seth bridge but still crunchy and still similar eq wise. I think this would achieve all your goals of: Seth, more output, mismatched coils, PAF sound, crunchy, but can clean up.

Jason Becker at 1:20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMu7IZlQiqE&t=105s

Demon at 3:05 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuX4S94flEU
 
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Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

frankfalbo said:
Yes and no. One point I've made in a few outlets over the years is that the lower distributed capacitance can be targeted either by randomizing the layering (scatter) but also by using thicker insulation, which also increases the gap between the winding. But the two do not produce the "same" result by any means. You could also lower it by reducing the number of turns per layer. That'll reduce crosstalk as well. But those three pickups will not sound the same. And yes, EVEN if the turn count on all three are manipulated to produce the same resonant peak. The Q's will be different but I'll address the frequency relationships below.

Again yes and no. The use of the word better or "far superior" is an opinion, which means some will agree, some won't. There are some positions that carry very large majorities, like new(er) strings sound "better" than rusty, decade-old strings with finger oils caked between the winds. But even that's not 100%.

However if you're suggesting a lower wind (turn count) as a surrogate for the resonant peak shifts obtained through scatter, insulation thickness, and/or pitch, that's even more different than those 3. And the SSL1 has a different wire gauge than the SSL5, which again dwarfs the subtlety of any patten or insulation thickness changes.

Yeah that part is just fodder. It's like saying your engine performance doesn't matter if your tires are bald. The two are not the same. Distributed capacitance within a coil is also related to phase smearing and other time constant anomalies. Cable capacitance takes THAT, and just knocks the peak down proportionately, but does not manipulate the relationships between frequency bands, nor can it undo any combing. If that quote were true, if all that mattered was the Q and peak frequency of a pickup, then the whole world could just live off of one high peak coil design, with R/C networks and make up gain. But these other subtle differences all become very meaningful to the player.
Click to expand...

You say "phase smearing and other time constant anomalies" happen, and have some sort of indescribable effect upon the tone, but google searching for these things in relation to audio turns up only a dozen or so results.

The first result that comes up even downplays the whole idea http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/Forums_General/acapella-57/288179-

Seriously, phase shift is benign, even in large amounts. The only time phase shift is audible is 1) when it is changing, 2) if the amount of shift is different between the left and right channels, and 3) if you combine original and shifted versions of the same signal. Phase shift is necessary for equalizers to work, and it is not harmful.
Click to expand...

The take away I get from this is that because a pickup is a single audio source, and because the phase lag is static, you won't notice any difference in the sound as a result.

"subtle differences all become very meaningful to the player" is just to vague to go on anyway. That could mean anything, like anything you believe you hear... that might owe to this "phase shifting". It's like telling people to fill in the blanks with their imagination. Personally, when I think phase shift, I think of a flanger effect, and I don't hear anything like that in various guitar pickups, hand wound or otherwise.

frankfalbo said:
If that quote were true, if all that mattered was the Q and peak frequency of a pickup, then the whole world could just live off of one high peak coil design, with R/C networks and make up gain.
Click to expand...

We're talking about coils and scatter winding, but it sounds like you're broadening the scope to include every aspect of the pickup. Of course a narrow single coil doesn't duplicate the comb filtering of a wide humbucker, but that has not much to do with scatter winding and coils.
 
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Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Okay, amid the science, I will give my opinions/ experiences as a guitar player of 45 years. (disclaimer in the last paragraph).

I have used regular production pickups and scatterwound (i.e. hand-guided wire onto machine-rotated bobbins) pickups in the same instruments. I will try to describe how I hear or sense the differences.

The hand-guided coils seem to bring the usual two-dimensional sounds into a realm I describe as 'three-dimensional'. The sound seems to take on a 'depth of field' kinda aspect not evident in regular production pickups. As a player, it can be sensed as well as heard. It's subtle, but it's there and it makes a big difference. It's almost as if the player can get a sense of their fingers walking around on the fretboard, with all the subtle variations that implies. That 'third dimension' effect brings a kind of 'air', a sense of 'front and back' perhaps. Maybe it's like the pickups 'breathe' in response to the quality of the instrument and the touch of the player. It's a wonderful thing, and tends to make going back to regular, two-dimensional production pickups seem like a flat and lifeless experience.

Most of my experiments and experiences in this area have been with Strats (ones I've owned for a long time). But I experience the same effects from hybrid humbuckers I've built .... different roads to the same place, which is why all my humbucker guitars use hybrids. A quality instrument gets more of it's voice and articulation range to the amplifier with scatterwound pickups, just as a good singer's voice may sound even better when they use a high-quality microphone.

But eh, don't worry, I'm sure decades of real-world experience is easily overturned by science, internet lore and people who simply can't hear or sense things as well as they could if they spent more time playing and learning how to listen, instead of just hearing things in a two-dimensioal way.
 
Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

crusty philtrum said:
The hand-guided coils seem to bring the usual two-dimensional sounds into a realm I describe as 'three-dimensional'. The sound seems to take on a 'depth of field' kinda aspect not evident in regular production pickups. That 'third dimension' effect brings a kind of sense of 'front and back'.
Click to expand...

That was actually the first thing I noticed when I tried hybrids for the first time.
 
Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

You say "phase smearing and other time constant anomalies" happen, and have some sort of indescribable effect upon the tone, but google searching for these things in relation to audio turns up only a dozen or so results.
Click to expand...

The Falbo[emoji768] has many years hands-on experience on this and other intricacies of pickups and other guitar gear. Complaining about insufficient number of google results on the issue could be seen as pretty much establishing that he just might have more than a pedestrian academic awareness of it.


In other words, Frank is not seen as the one that's all hat and no cattle.
 
Re: Searched, could not find info:scatter, loose, tight, normal wind

Wow,
That was my original intent for this thread, from post 24-38.
SJ
 
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