serious FX loop/DD20 problems

[B2D]

A while ago I posted a thread asking for help with my delay pedal in my FX loop. What I found out from various people was that the pedal I was using was designed for different signal levels (-10db) than what the FX loop was running (+4db) and the signal coming from the FX loop send was overdriving the pedal's circuits, causing that mushy fuzzy echo sound.

I did some homework and found that the Boss DD20 GigaDelay was switchable from -20 to +4 db signal ranges so it couls work in parallel loops with that signal, so I purchased one.

I've been TRYING to use it in rehearsals but I've been getting very odd problems with it....

I have it in the effects loop, with the amp's mix knob set at 50% and the pedal set for mono operation at +4db. I usually set the fedback for 3 or 4 repeats and the effect level knob at a point where you can hear a distinct effect. The problem is that if I have anything set higher than absolute minimum (where the effect is barely audible) a few seconds after I start playing this low, puslating, throbbing noise works its way into the sound. It's like this "WUM-WUM-WUM-WUM" sound. And it gets LOUD. The guitar signal itself gets buried behind this wall of noise and chopped up into this tremolo-like effect and I can't kill the noise unless I turn the guitar's volume off, and then turn the pedal off for a moment.

Nothing I've tried to get rid of this works. I've tried wall-wart power vs. batteries, I've tried different amp mix/pedal effect levels (like 100% and the effect level at about 10-o' clock), I've tried setting the pedal's signal levels back to the -20 range...

I've checked the tubes and they're all fine. I noticed the amp mix knob DOES make a VERY slight scratching sound when rotated, is that normal? This happens on BOTH channels, no matter what gain level there is, and the reverb is totally off.

And of course, the pedal works totally fine when I put it in front of the amp. But I need to use it in the loop, and when I do all hell breaks loose and NOTHING seems to help. It either stays the same or gets worse. I've never had this happen before with any other things Ive used in the loop.

Somebody heeeeelp!!!

 

[ErikH]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

Weird. I have an old DD-2 that I run in my loop with no problems and my loop level is up all the way. Make sure the power supply is regulated (PSA-120) or what is recommended for that unit.

According to the manual for that unit, it should be set to +4 for use in an effects loop. What kind of amp? What's the overall effect level set to on the DD-20?

 

[B2D]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

Weird. I have an old DD-2 that I run in my loop with no problems and my loop level is up all the way. Make sure the power supply is regulated (PSA-120) or what is recommended for that unit.

I am using a boss power supply, and keep in mind that this also happens when I use a full load of fresh AA batteries.

According to the manual for that unit, it should be set to +4 for use in an effects loop. What kind of amp? What's the overall effect level set to on the DD-20?

It's a Mesa/Boogie Rectoverb. I have the level set to about 1 or 2 o'clock when I have the amp mix at 50% and 10 or 11 o'clock when the amp mix is set to 100%. Those are the two setups I've tried and the problem is worse with higher amp mix %age levels.

 

[ErikH]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

Ok, put the loop level at 50%, set the unit level to 11 o'clock, see what that does. You may need to tweak with the thing a while before find the right level. Is that programmable like a rack? If so, there's all sorts of parameters you may need to adjust for the loop. I had to with my Rocktron Intellifex LTD when I put it on the loop.

 

[muttonchopsrule]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

B2D:

i'm in the same boat as you. i have a single recto and when i use my DD-3 in the loop i get the EXACT same problem. i've also checked all the tubes/messed with levels/messed with power supplies, and the problem still occurs.

the thing that puzzles me most about this is that i used to use the same delay pedal (not just the same model...the exact same pedal) all the time in the loop when before my last band split up, and now after i haven't used it in a few months, it started doing this for no apparent reason.

if anyone knows a solution to this, i would be interested in knowing too. it really is an obnoxious thing to have to deal with...i feel you pain, really man.

 

[B2D]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

Ok, put the loop level at 50%, set the unit level to 11 o'clock, see what that does. You may need to tweak with the thing a while before find the right level. Is that programmable like a rack? If so, there's all sorts of parameters you may need to adjust for the loop. I had to with my Rocktron Intellifex LTD when I put it on the loop.

I already did that... and I just get the aforementioned pulsating noise storm.

The problem is once i do find a level that doesn't cause the noise storm and problems, the pedal isn't even really on... It sounds like a hint of reverb. I'll go over the manual to see if I missed something but IIRC the only really programmable thing besides the memories for different delay sounds is the output mode, which I have set to +4db.

I've never had this problem before with ANYTHING. I did own a TC Electronics G-Major for a while and I did have to program a bunch of things into it but I never had this problem.

 

[B2D]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

B2D:

i'm in the same boat as you. i have a single recto and when i use my DD-3 in the loop i get the EXACT same problem. i've also checked all the tubes/messed with levels/messed with power supplies, and the problem still occurs.

the thing that puzzles me most about this is that i used to use the same delay pedal (not just the same model...the exact same pedal) all the time in the loop when before my last band split up, and now after i haven't used it in a few months, it started doing this for no apparent reason.

if anyone knows a solution to this, i would be interested in knowing too. it really is an obnoxious thing to have to deal with...i feel you pain, really man.

It's after 5 over here but I think tomorrow I'll call the MESA Hollywood store to see if anyone over there can help me. Thats weird that you've had the same problem.

With my Dan Echo (which is a digital pedal) the sound mushed up cuz the signal levels were wrong but at least THIS didn't happen!

 

[muttonchopsrule]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

Ok, put the loop level at 50%, set the unit level to 11 o'clock, see what that does. You may need to tweak with the thing a while before find the right level. Is that programmable like a rack? If so, there's all sorts of parameters you may need to adjust for the loop. I had to with my Rocktron Intellifex LTD when I put it on the loop.

when i used to use my DD-3 on a regular basis, i'd crank the level on the pedal and try to keep the FX mix on my amp as low as possible so i would maintain a drier signal going to the power amp. but it never used to give me any problems regardless of how my levels were set....i don't think the FX mix level or the level on the FX unit are really a contributing factor to the problem. but on the other hand, i don't know why it's happening to begin with. it's really really really strange and i don't understand why it's happening at all.

 

[muttonchopsrule]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

It's after 5 over here but I think tomorrow I'll call the MESA Hollywood store to see if anyone over there can help me. Thats weird that you've had the same problem.

word. keep me filled in on whether or not it gets worked out.

maybe it's a boss thing...the other guitarist in my band has some toneworks delay pedal, and it works just fine in my effects loop (although i don't think that pedal sounds all that good )

 

[ErikH]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

I have a Marshall and both my Intellifex LTD and BOSS DD-2 work fine in the loop so I don't think it's a BOSS thing. Something else is going on.

 

[some_dude]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

It's a Mesa/Boogie Rectoverb.

I used to have the same problem with my Recto running into a DD-20. It used to be particularily bad with the dual delay setting.

I turned down the channel volume and it worked fine.

I've read a few times that there's a mod available from Mesa for people that have problems with some effects in their loop, but I don't know too much about it.

 

[some_dude]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

Here's a post I read the other day (I highlighted the important part);

ahhh helicopter noises. Though the +10 and -4 volume differences might play a small part, getting a line leveler did not fix my problem...

I actually had to mod the parallel effects loop on my series 2 rectoverb to a series. A really quick, 2 solderings of wires mod. My delays and parametric eqs work perfrectly now.

Seems like there has to be some kind of delay in that loop that causes things to go out of phase. Though my mix pot on the bakc says 10 to 90 percent.

Give mesa tech a call

Here's the thread - http://www.grailtone.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=706


Come to think of it, I haven't had whoomp whoomp whoomp problem either since I started using my delay in series (I have parallel and series loops).

 

[muttonchopsrule]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

according to what you guys know about this problem, do you think the same thing would happen with a line6 DL4 in the loop? because i've been meaning to pick one of those up anyway.

 

[B2D]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

You know what I'm gonna do? I'm going to email this thread to the techs at the MESA Hollywood store. They're always good about answering q's, they should be able to shed some light on the subject.

EDIT: Email sent!

 

[milkbone]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

I have a rectoverb and a DD20 and never had the problem you are descibing. I know you said you checked the tubes, What kind of 12ax7 are you using in the loop?

 

[B2D]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

I got a response from the guys at Mesa! Here's what they said...


~~~~~~~
The parallel loop in the Rectoverb has a weird thing where it likes to do that helicopter thing with delay pedals...I've seen it with Boss and Line 6 effects.
We do reccomend getting the series loop mod done, if you're local, just bring it in here and leave it for a few days....the charge is $50.00
Thanks,

Jay Hood
Mesa Boogie Hollywood
~~~~~~

So at least i know it's not MY fault :biglaugh: I'll write them back to ask what's the physical/technical reason WHY this happens.

stay tuned!

I have a rectoverb and a DD20 and never had the problem you are descibing. I know you said you checked the tubes, What kind of 12ax7 are you using in the loop?

Just the stock "Russian" 12AX7's they ship with.

Just curious... do you have a series 1 R.O.V. or a series 2?

 

[CapoFirstFret]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

yeah, I had this same issue with an RV-3 in the effects loop of my rectoverb combo...and i haven't tried it with my DD-3 but I'm sure I'd have the same problem, but I'm not gonna bother...I don't mind having the DD-3 in front of my rig since I don't run that many pedals anyway

 

[ErikH]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

$50.00 isn't bad to make the loop series. I'd get it done.

 

[B2D]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

...aaaaand their follow-up response to my 2nd question:

~~~~~~

I think there is some FET in the loop of that amp that gets weird....I think that it does have to do with too much signal hitting it....you may want to contact someone at the factory for more detailed technical info....John Marshall is the guy to talk to....anyway, the best thing to do is to get the series loop mod, and no, this doesn't happen with the Stilleto's, Duals, or Triples. It's just something weird with the Recto-verb.
Thanks,

Jay Hood
~~~~~

Mystery solved. It's a design flaw...

 

[muttonchopsrule]

Re: serious FX loop/DD20 problems

What kind of 12ax7 are you using in the loop?

i've tried the stock mesa 12ax7, JJ 12ax7's, and electro-harmonix 12ax7's.

and B2D, thanks for that info. looks like i'll be looking into that mod sometime in the near future