Seth Lover Magnet Swap

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

Thanks Blueman; AddictionFX is the only place I've ever seen 'em for sale but they ran out in 2014 and now don't list them, even as an out-of-stock item. I'm waiting to hear back from them.

I'm curious- can differences in pattern affect the reading? Obviously both tension and pattern will impact the tone. I figure that using a lot of tension could actually stretch the wire slightly, maybe enough to change the final reading. But given the same number of turns, would the winding pattern make a difference in the DCR? That never occurred to me.

I believe the wire quality itself would have more of an impact on DCR readings, as I've heard more winders discuss this subject. Just because the wire spool says 42 AWG or 43 AWG doesn't mean that it is consistently of that thickness throughout, and the insulation type and thickness/thinness is also a consideration. More or less tension when winding pups will affect the wire's overall dimensions which are a consideration as well. My ears say that there is a distinct tonal quality to the Plain Enamel coated wire used in say Fender 69' CS strat single coils versus stratocaster single coils wound with Formvar wire. Some would say they couldn't hear the difference but I can.

 

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

sounds like Holmes has gotten himself into quite a pickle with someone.

Why do you say that? We're all just discussing nuances of pickups.

 

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

My favorite neck pickup in an SG is a 70s T-top; I'm told that a lot of their character is due to short A5 mags. And my favorite pairing for humbuckers right now is A4 neck/UA5 bridge. But in your case I might go with UA5 in the neck too, for a little more fullness and bite. In an SG boominess is less of a concern, I think. UA5 will likely give a little more character as well as a bit more push for leads. I'm a big fan of the UA5, and I probably never would've heard of it if not for this forum.

You may be right about the UOA5 RC magnet for my neck humbucker (with the correct adjustments) for what I require. One of my favorite neck pups that I own is a WCR Bet Set neck in my 93' Gibson ES-335 guitar. It measures around 7.5K DCR and has this wonderful woody, vocal, warm, and sweet tone that is to die for as an all around lead and rhythm pickup. I know that Jim Wagner uses A5 magnets for this pup although he's utilizing either "de-gaussed A5", "rough cast A5", or even "short mag A5" for this particular humbucker set.

Several of the members who have been here for awhile and have experimented extensively with magnet swaps either highly recommend the (A3 NK & UOA5 BR) or (UOA5 NK & UOA5 BR) combos as their faves. Pepe or "Lt. Kojak" mentioned that he has installed numerous "Jimmy Page" (UOA5 NK & UOA5 BR) magnet combos in his customer's pups.

 

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

One thing I'd like to hear more about which Dennis at AddictionFX only lightly glossed over was, upgrades to (screws, slugs, and baseplates) for humbuckers. Are there certain qualities for these individual parts that have certain signature tonal qualities? With magnet swapping, upgraded (screws, slugs, baseplates), and coil hybridization there's really no need to expend the bucks that one used to be accustomed to when searching for "that perfect humbucker" pup, especially if one already has 7 loose (and unused) humbucker sets as I do.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

I believe the wire quality itself would have more of an impact on DCR readings, as I've heard more winders discuss this subject. Just because the wire spool says 42 AWG or 43 AWG doesn't mean that it is consistently of that thickness throughout, and the insulation type and thickness/thinness is also a consideration. More or less tension when winding pups will affect the wire's overall dimensions which are a consideration as well. My ears say that there is a distinct tonal quality to the Plain Enamel coated wire used in say Fender 69' CS strat single coils versus stratocaster single coils wound with Formvar wire. Some would say they couldn't hear the difference but I can.

I agree. Definitely tone differences between PE and Formvar. Some winders keep several spools of wire, which are slightly different in thickness although nominally the same spec. I'm pretty sure Tom Holmes does this also; he has a reputation for being very particular about the engineering aspects.

I had posted upthread that differences in the readings for your pickups were most likely due to variations in the batch of wire yours were made with. Blueman answered that differences in pattern and tension made for different DCR readings too (which hadn't occurred to me) as well as temperature, which I knew already.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

Southbound Suarez,
For what it is worth, the UA5 and Short A5's I have received are darkish brown in color, fairly smooth on top (not shiny or buffed) and the bottoms are a tad rough cast. but just a little, I had to feel to be sure. The A4's I have been using that I got from addition FX some years ago are very rough cast. I just looked at the regular A5 long that came with his PG-102 and it has a rough top , smooth bottom, shiny edge, and more grey looking. I just noticed that the edge of the short A5 was rough, not shiny like the edges other mags Jon has sent me.
As an experiment, I poured warm water on an old A2 last night and it did not grow hair like a chia pet. I have to keep my expectations realistic, I guess.
I have no idea if that is of any help at all. But there you go.
Steve B.

 

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

Southbound Suarez,
For what it is worth, the UA5 and Short A5's I have received are darkish brown in color, fairly smooth on top (not shiny or buffed) and the bottoms are a tad rough cast. but just a little, I had to feel to be sure. The A4's I have been using that I got from addition FX some years ago are very rough cast. I just looked at the regular A5 long that came with his PG-102 and it has a rough top , smooth bottom, shiny edge, and more grey looking. I just noticed that the edge of the short A5 was rough, not shiny like the edges other mags Jon has sent me.
As an experiment, I poured warm water on an old A2 last night and it did not grow hair like a chia pet. I have to keep my expectations realistic, I guess.
I have no idea if that is of any help at all. But there you go.
Steve B.

I already received (2) Rough Cast UOA5 long magnets from AddictionFX which I swapped into my Seymour 59' humbucker set. I am visually familiar with both polished magnets and rough (or sandcast) magnets. It's not so much the color as it is the texture of the magnet. I am not familiar with Jon but, I am familiar with Dennis @ AddictionFX who is the go to guy there. Thanks.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

Wire tension will increase stretch and make it thinner.....of course increasing K.
All the parts of a pickup that magnetise also have an effect - there was a test done by James at Rewind of various different allows for keeper bar and screw alloy. There was a small but distinct change in the eq of the pickup. Its usually in the 'presence' part of the spectrum.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

All the parts of a pickup that magnetise also have an effect - there was a test done by James at Rewind of various different allows for keeper bar and screw alloy. There was a small but distinct change in the eq of the pickup. Its usually in the 'presence' part of the spectrum.

+1. Alloys make a difference. Chrome plated parts yield a different sound than raw ones. Stamped and milled keeper bars change the tone obtained. Annealed steels change the output. Old Bessemer steels apparently don't react to magnetism in the same way. And so on [and it's not a psychoacoustic thing: IME, all these change can be detected by tools like a Gaussmeter or a LRC meter].

To evoke an experiment among others: I've once loaded the "magnetic circuit" of a Seth Lover with parts coming from a patent sticker T-Top and it clearly changed the character of the pickup (more than a simple mag swap would have done).

SIDE NOTE - With any pickup including removable steel poles, an interesting thing to try is to use different alloys of slugs and/or screws for the wound and plain strings. Listen and tell me what you notice...

To Steve B ( SJ318) : glad to know that AlexR and freefrog have been useful by giving you the idea to try a short A5.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

To freefrog -
Thanks are definetly in order. I understand the "honeymoon effect" when finding something that works for your
guitar in general.
But that A5 short that Jon sold me (2) made such a HUGE difference in my basswood chambered guitar. A world of
difference. I had to swap out my A4 in my SG-61 R.I. Seth bridge. It too made a difference, for the better, but it already
sounded good anyway, so it was not as dramatic.
I feel like I felt when I tried the A4 for the first time. I wanted to put it in every bridge p'up I have. Now I feel that way about A5 SRT. A side note, on all my neck p'ups, the Duncan Jazz neck is just great. The ElectriCityPicups' M. Bloomfield bridge p'up was so bright, I put it in the neck on my SG, what a great match. For low end boom on my A5 Jazz neck, I just lower the heck out of the poles under the low E & A strings. As my gauge is 9-11-15-24-36-48 on my SG I lose no balance in volume.
On my Strat, to keep the low strings from moving when I bend the higher ones I go 9-11-15-26-38-50, this also seems to get it back in tune faster (obviously) but I would bet you a 50 dollar meal it keeps it in tune better also, and at rest my palm
doesn't accidentally push it out of tune unless I try.
Getting back to the mag, the color I just mentioned in case it meant anything, which I doubted.
Freefrog, AlexR, Pepe(LT.), blueman, S.Suarez, and all at S.Dunc.-
A huge thank you to all. The sounds I get now are like the sounds
I hear in my head, thanks to this forum and others, but mainly this
one. All of you got me there with surgical strikes along the way.
My very sincere thanks,
Steve Buffington.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

Alloys make a difference.

SIDE NOTE - With any pickup including removable steel poles, an interesting thing to try is to use different alloys of slugs and/or screws for the wound and plain strings. Listen and tell me what you notice...

exactly.

for example, Mojotone has some pickups like the Level Head and the PW Hornet, where they put slugs and screws on the same coil... AND use different alloys to tailor the response.

 

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

Hi,
I have a post up now in the Pick up Lounge 8/16 for a few days, and I was once a great fan of A5's and then A4's in the bridge with my Seth Lover's.
I recently had to use a tone killing Strat chambered basswood body, and all the p'ups I tried sounded just dead, just awful even. On ThroBaks suggestion (Jon @TBak) an A5 short oriented mag in my Seth bridge fixed it so well I put another of his A5 short mags in my SG R-I '61, and they both are lively, they growl, clear, articulate, great mids, louder to my ear, not boomy, bright but not shrill. These are now my favorites after years of looking. I am sure I'll find other's in the future, but for now, after much swapping, these kill.
Jon charges them so they are at the same level of a new PAF (the A5 short). The way it would have been new in 1959 or so.
Good luck
Steve B.

Steve, I meant to ask you when you ordered your A5 short mags, did you order them as "polished" or "rough cast" , "oriented" or "unoriented" ? What is really making me curious about humbucker sets from the various winders (including Seymour Duncan), is when they make blanket statements about their humbucker sets utilizing "roughcast" magnets f.e. Does that mean for both humbucker positions (NK & BR) or are they using polished magnets for the neck humbuckers and rough cast magnets for the bridge, and just not offering up that info?

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

Wire tension will increase stretch and make it thinner.....of course increasing K.

I'm curious about this- it seems to me that given the same number of turns, thinner wire should yield a slightly lower DCR since the signal is passing through less copper. It's my impression that the higher DCR numbers on pickups using thinner wire (ie: 43AWG instead of 42AWG) are because more turns are laid down with the thinner gauge wire. Am I mistaken in either of those?

 

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

I'm curious about this- it seems to me that given the same number of turns, thinner wire should yield a slightly lower DCR since the signal is passing through less copper. It's my impression that the higher DCR numbers on pickups using thinner wire (ie: 43AWG instead of 42AWG) are because more turns are laid down with the thinner gauge wire. Am I mistaken in either of those?

An analogy would be good here. Imagine a garden hose is your 42 AWG with a specific resistance, now reduce that garden hose diameter and try to push through the same amount of water. If there's more resistance to begin with, even with the same number of winds the 43 AWG will read a higher resistance.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

Mojotone has some pickups like the Level Head and the PW Hornet, where they put slugs and screws on the same coil... AND use different alloys to tailor the response.

Have been tempted to try those PW Hornets. A great outside-the-box idea for conventional bobbins. And nicely executed as a medium-DCR humbucker where there's been a significant gap in the major brands.

I have a few Railhammers that take the concept to a more extreme level and I like them a lot.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

An analogy would be good here. Imagine a garden hose is your 42 AWG with a specific resistance, now reduce that garden hose diameter and try to push through the same amount of water. If there's more resistance to begin with, even with the same number of winds the 43 AWG will read a higher resistance.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

Have been tempted to try those PW Hornets. A great outside-the-box idea for conventional bobbins. And nicely executed as a medium-DCR humbucker where there's been a significant gap in the major brands.

Very much so.

Another company is coming out with a model for the other player in that same band. Last I heard is was going to be priced at a custom shop level, which lost my interest....especially when the Mojotone set is priced much more affordable and has been available for years.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

S. Suarez-
All of ThroBaks mags are listed as rough cast, exception being an option for an all sides polished A4. The A5 Short is RC and oriented.
The A5 Longs come UO, or Oriented. He also has 2 types of UO A5 longs made in 2 different places that gives them different qualities.
On his site, under "gear" you can find a description of each magnet. Under "price" he says rough cast or polished.
I think he considers all his mags rough cast except for the A4 where you have a choice.
Hope I got all that correct.
Hopefully that helps,
Steve B.

 

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

S. Suarez-
All of ThroBaks mags are listed as rough cast, exception being an option for an all sides polished A4. The A5 Short is RC and oriented.
The A5 Longs come UO, or Oriented. He also has 2 types of UO A5 longs made in 2 different places that gives them different qualities.
On his site, under "gear" you can find a description of each magnet. Under "price" he says rough cast or polished.
I think he considers all his mags rough cast except for the A4 where you have a choice.
Hope I got all that correct.
Hopefully that helps,
Steve B.

 

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Seth Lover Magnet Swap

Finally got the darn covers off of my Seth Lover hb set. Had to get a new solder tip and use a razor blade to get between the covers and base plate whilst desoldering. Was very surprised to find zebra coils underneath both pups. I swapped in a pair of UOA5 RC magnets from Addiction-fx, and tonight I'm taking out the 57' Classic humbuckers in favor of the magnet swapped Seth's. BTW, does anyone here have a 05' Gibson CS 61' SG Les Paul? I ordered mine through GC when Gibson had a special going on through Musician's Friend , "Buy any Gibson CS guitar and get a free SD Seth Lover Anniversary humbucker set w/A5 magnets".

My SG has serial numbers stamped into the wood as opposed to "ink stamped" which I verified (number wise). Apparently the Gibson CS SG's aren't always "ink stamped"? And, mine has a white pickguard on it that looks similar to Frank Marino's SG (here)...

with the exception of the lower bout (portion) of said pick guard being the SG Standard pick guard shape.

Apparently my 61' Les Paul SG was supposed to have been taken to a Namm show but, it never made it to that particular show.