Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
- Thread starter jalguitarman
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blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
The two coils in a HB are rarely ever perfectly identical, so slight differences are the norm. They wind a bunch of coils for a model, and pair up the ones closest to each other. From the hybrids I made for neck HB's: at a 5% difference in coil resistance you can hear a sharper upper edge start to emerge, and at 10% it's enough for me to use a warmer magnet, and still have a bright neck PU. So I can have an 8K neck hybrid with an UOA5 (and the richer tone that comes with it), that's brighter than a '59N, and without the boomy low end. That's why I make neck hybrids.
The two coils in a HB are rarely ever perfectly identical, so slight differences are the norm. They wind a bunch of coils for a model, and pair up the ones closest to each other. From the hybrids I made for neck HB's: at a 5% difference in coil resistance you can hear a sharper upper edge start to emerge, and at 10% it's enough for me to use a warmer magnet, and still have a bright neck PU. So I can have an 8K neck hybrid with an UOA5 (and the richer tone that comes with it), that's brighter than a '59N, and without the boomy low end. That's why I make neck hybrids.
LazNovak
New member
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
Sounds cool. Which neck hybrids have you made?
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
I've made a number of PAF combinations, a bridge coil with a neck coil, which gives around a .5K difference in résistance. That means part of one coil isn't under the 'HB effect' so that some single coil sound can come thru, hence the sharper high-end and thinner mids. I've done '59N/'59B, SethN/SethB, '59N/SethB, '59N/A2PB, etc. I use '59's a lot in hybrids as they're commonly available used.
As much as I like warm, rich bridge PU's, I want my neck PU's to have some treble and high-end bite. I can't stand dark, muddy neck PU's. I do that with hybrids or spin-a-split.
I've made a number of PAF combinations, a bridge coil with a neck coil, which gives around a .5K difference in résistance. That means part of one coil isn't under the 'HB effect' so that some single coil sound can come thru, hence the sharper high-end and thinner mids. I've done '59N/'59B, SethN/SethB, '59N/SethB, '59N/A2PB, etc. I use '59's a lot in hybrids as they're commonly available used.
As much as I like warm, rich bridge PU's, I want my neck PU's to have some treble and high-end bite. I can't stand dark, muddy neck PU's. I do that with hybrids or spin-a-split.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
Just in case my post wasn't worded clearly, I have two Pearly Gates humbuckers, and the coils in each are nearly identical, so if they are typically mismatched in practice, it's at least not the case with the two I have on hand.
I've done the spin a split mod a few times, I suspect that imbalancing the coils on purpose is substantially similar to slightly rolling off one of the two coils.
Just in case my post wasn't worded clearly, I have two Pearly Gates humbuckers, and the coils in each are nearly identical, so if they are typically mismatched in practice, it's at least not the case with the two I have on hand.
I've done the spin a split mod a few times, I suspect that imbalancing the coils on purpose is substantially similar to slightly rolling off one of the two coils.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
Okay, that's clearer. Any PU falls in a certain range, and published resistance's are a ball park number, not an absolute. In making his Fluence PU's, Fishman said he tested sampling of a number of makes and models of PU's, and said even within the same model there was always variation; some were all over the map and he didn't see how they even could be called the same model. That's one of the goals of his Fluence line, because there's a lot of variation within a model due to patterns, tension, and where they occur on the PU. Fishman didn't want to name names, but he thinks we'd be surprised as to who are the worst offenders.
Players are under the impression that PU's are much more consistent than they really are. We tend to blame woods and other things when a PU sounds different than expected, but sometimes it's the PU's themselves not being all that uniform.
Okay, that's clearer. Any PU falls in a certain range, and published resistance's are a ball park number, not an absolute. In making his Fluence PU's, Fishman said he tested sampling of a number of makes and models of PU's, and said even within the same model there was always variation; some were all over the map and he didn't see how they even could be called the same model. That's one of the goals of his Fluence line, because there's a lot of variation within a model due to patterns, tension, and where they occur on the PU. Fishman didn't want to name names, but he thinks we'd be surprised as to who are the worst offenders.
Players are under the impression that PU's are much more consistent than they really are. We tend to blame woods and other things when a PU sounds different than expected, but sometimes it's the PU's themselves not being all that uniform.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
Right, spin-a-split's similar to a hybrid, but then again different if the hybrid uses coils of different winds or wire gauge, like the '59/Custom. A spin-a-split can't duplicate that big of a disparity between coils.
Right, spin-a-split's similar to a hybrid, but then again different if the hybrid uses coils of different winds or wire gauge, like the '59/Custom. A spin-a-split can't duplicate that big of a disparity between coils.
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
I don't think they are as inconsistent and you might think. The reason the DC resistance can vary is due to heat changes or slight variations in the thickness of the magnet wire due to manufacturing issues or stretching, or maybe even the purity of the copper wire, or finally because there are more or less winds. The temperature shouldn't be a factor here since the coils are the same temperature at any given time. What I think it safe to assume is that the pickup winding machines have working counters, and that if their product specs call for 5000 turns on the bobbin, there is no reason I can think of for why a properly calibrated machine would overshoot or undershoot the wind count to any significant degree. The number of turns is what is more important than slight variations in wire thickness or purity, because that determines how much inductance will be produce by the coil, from which comes the resonance. So if the DC resistance between two Pearly Gates reads a 5% differences, but the number of winds are the same to within 1%, they should still sound the same.
I wouldn't really take Fishman at their word, since it's in their interest to cast FUD on the competition's product, without regard for what may or may not be true.
I don't think they are as inconsistent and you might think. The reason the DC resistance can vary is due to heat changes or slight variations in the thickness of the magnet wire due to manufacturing issues or stretching, or maybe even the purity of the copper wire, or finally because there are more or less winds. The temperature shouldn't be a factor here since the coils are the same temperature at any given time. What I think it safe to assume is that the pickup winding machines have working counters, and that if their product specs call for 5000 turns on the bobbin, there is no reason I can think of for why a properly calibrated machine would overshoot or undershoot the wind count to any significant degree. The number of turns is what is more important than slight variations in wire thickness or purity, because that determines how much inductance will be produce by the coil, from which comes the resonance. So if the DC resistance between two Pearly Gates reads a 5% differences, but the number of winds are the same to within 1%, they should still sound the same.
I wouldn't really take Fishman at their word, since it's in their interest to cast FUD on the competition's product, without regard for what may or may not be true.
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
It depends on the what the disparity accomplishes. When you combine two coils together, the parallel capacitance and series inductance combine together to more or less act as a single coil that happened to have those values to begin with. The real difference is how much current will be generated by either coil, which is going to be the one with more copper and a stronger magnetism over it. The fatter coil, and/or more strongly magnetized string is going to win out of the weaker coil, or the one which sees less magnetism, and that is similar to what you accomplish with a spin a split, as you shunt one of the coils so that the other can become more prominent.
It depends on the what the disparity accomplishes. When you combine two coils together, the parallel capacitance and series inductance combine together to more or less act as a single coil that happened to have those values to begin with. The real difference is how much current will be generated by either coil, which is going to be the one with more copper and a stronger magnetism over it. The fatter coil, and/or more strongly magnetized string is going to win out of the weaker coil, or the one which sees less magnetism, and that is similar to what you accomplish with a spin a split, as you shunt one of the coils so that the other can become more prominent.
hamerfan
Well-known member
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
If you wind the coil with a CC winder, which evens out the stretch, you still have variance with enamel lacquer, the so called build. This makes a bigger or smaller coil. this is soundwise more important than some hundred inch of wire more or less.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
I'd like to think Larry Fishman knows what he's talking about. He designed and built equipment to 3D graph the sonic qualities of PU's. It's difficult get the tensions and patterns exactly the same for every model of PU. It's very believable that some PU makers control this more than others. It's a matter of priority. As consumers, we assume they're all the same. It's not turns, as much as it is variations in and quality of raw materials, as well as duplicating exact patterns and tensions, which can vary throughout all those turns.
Remember, it's also in a PU's maker's best interests to portray their products as being very consistent. They also have skin in the game, and are not without bias. The last thing in the world they'd want is for word to get out that their quality control isn't what players expect it to be.
This reminds of ammunition maker's published stats. Velocities were revised downwards quite a bit when portable chronometers became available for the average shooter. Any manufacturer is as precise as they need to be, and things that are hard to verify may not be quite what we think they are.
I'd like to think Larry Fishman knows what he's talking about. He designed and built equipment to 3D graph the sonic qualities of PU's. It's difficult get the tensions and patterns exactly the same for every model of PU. It's very believable that some PU makers control this more than others. It's a matter of priority. As consumers, we assume they're all the same. It's not turns, as much as it is variations in and quality of raw materials, as well as duplicating exact patterns and tensions, which can vary throughout all those turns.
Remember, it's also in a PU's maker's best interests to portray their products as being very consistent. They also have skin in the game, and are not without bias. The last thing in the world they'd want is for word to get out that their quality control isn't what players expect it to be.
This reminds of ammunition maker's published stats. Velocities were revised downwards quite a bit when portable chronometers became available for the average shooter. Any manufacturer is as precise as they need to be, and things that are hard to verify may not be quite what we think they are.
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Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
Most the induction occurs towards the center of the coil because that's where the magnetism is the most concentrated. As you get farther away from the center, the coil generates less and less current, so a thinner or a thicker coil will both place copper where it matters the most. The most significant difference the insulation would make is to alter the amount of stray capacitance versus stray inductance between the winding throughout the coil, where thicker insulation gives you less stray capacitance (because the copper wire is farther apart), but more stray inductance (because the copper wire uses the extra space to form it's own little magnetic field), but I haven't seen any data talking about how much these factors actually vary in practice. I'd bet money that wire tension, and resulting degree of slack, has more effect over wire spacing than the choice of insulation. Plus, the sum total of parallel capacitance changes when you change lengths of guitar cable, so even in that case it's somewhere between difficult to impossible to characterize a pickup based on it's stray capacitance or stray inductance.
Most the induction occurs towards the center of the coil because that's where the magnetism is the most concentrated. As you get farther away from the center, the coil generates less and less current, so a thinner or a thicker coil will both place copper where it matters the most. The most significant difference the insulation would make is to alter the amount of stray capacitance versus stray inductance between the winding throughout the coil, where thicker insulation gives you less stray capacitance (because the copper wire is farther apart), but more stray inductance (because the copper wire uses the extra space to form it's own little magnetic field), but I haven't seen any data talking about how much these factors actually vary in practice. I'd bet money that wire tension, and resulting degree of slack, has more effect over wire spacing than the choice of insulation. Plus, the sum total of parallel capacitance changes when you change lengths of guitar cable, so even in that case it's somewhere between difficult to impossible to characterize a pickup based on it's stray capacitance or stray inductance.
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
While it's true that a boutique winder might have inconsistent production methods, Fishman's claim would have to be that inconsistency is inherent to traditional passive pickups, boutique or otherwise, because then the solution would not be to create and sell the Fishman, but instead to just make traditional passive pickups with a higher consistency.
While it's true that a boutique winder might have inconsistent production methods, Fishman's claim would have to be that inconsistency is inherent to traditional passive pickups, boutique or otherwise, because then the solution would not be to create and sell the Fishman, but instead to just make traditional passive pickups with a higher consistency.
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toneseeker74
New member
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
They really do! There's this sense of air around them, very lively. When I play them I think, "Yeah. That's it. That old blues guitar sound." I have never found that sound and feeling with any other pickup I have tried.
They really do! There's this sense of air around them, very lively. When I play them I think, "Yeah. That's it. That old blues guitar sound." I have never found that sound and feeling with any other pickup I have tried.
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
I think the wood spacer versus plastic spacer is sometimes used to point out how zealous and particular PAF fans can be, but I wonder if the wood spacer in fact changes a microphonic aspect of the pickup. Jason Lollar believes that using rubber tubing to mount the pickups renders them less microphonic than spring mounts, because the rubber dampens vibration more than the springs will. I could see a wood spacer having similar effect in a PAF pickup.
I think the wood spacer versus plastic spacer is sometimes used to point out how zealous and particular PAF fans can be, but I wonder if the wood spacer in fact changes a microphonic aspect of the pickup. Jason Lollar believes that using rubber tubing to mount the pickups renders them less microphonic than spring mounts, because the rubber dampens vibration more than the springs will. I could see a wood spacer having similar effect in a PAF pickup.
Myaccount876
Amira-Maker
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
Thinking a magnet is a sole indicator of output is just as incorrect as thinking DCR is a sole indicator of output. Don't focus too much on one part that you lose sight of things.
You should already know this; I noticed that you even liked the post I quoted,
Thinking a magnet is a sole indicator of output is just as incorrect as thinking DCR is a sole indicator of output. Don't focus too much on one part that you lose sight of things.
You should already know this; I noticed that you even liked the post I quoted,
LtKojak
New member
Re: Seth Lover Neck vs Pearly Gates Neck.
The spin-a-split reduces the output of one of the coils.
Winding both coils with different amount of turns, would not only affect the output, but both the individual and summed resonance peak as well.
HTH,
Well... not really.
The spin-a-split reduces the output of one of the coils.
Winding both coils with different amount of turns, would not only affect the output, but both the individual and summed resonance peak as well.
HTH,
