Setting Intonation "Perfectly"

[dpaterson]

Hello all.

This the second in my series of "perfect" posts (helpful hints)!!! The use of the word "perfect" is tongue in cheek by the way (just take a look at my thread on setting pickup height and you'll see why)!!! LOL!!!

Moving on:

Ever try setting your intonation using a CAPO on the 12th fret??? Try it. You might like it (the result that is)!!!

Here's why:

All of my guitars have Floyd Rose trem. systems which can be temperamental (even on a good day). What I found was that when setting intonation: I was inclined to wonder whether I was fretting the strings with the exact same pressure on each different string on each different guitar, was I fretting in the exact same place, at exactly the same angle, that type of thing. So I figured (some years ago) well why not take the variable (human) factor out of the equation and use a CAPO and, well, works great for me. Also (and please don't SOME, but not all of course, deny this): the tendency when setting intonation CAN be to fret the string and apply more or less pressure to actually let it show as correctly intonated on your tuner ESPECIALLY when you're busy with your third guitar, last string, been a long day type of thing (it's human nature but I'm guessing I'll be hard pressed to find anybody being prepared to admit to this human failing!!! LOL!!!).

Also (and I saw an argument about this on some other thread around these parts but could not find it this morning):

It's the 12th fret harmonic that should agree with the 12th fret fretted note and not the open string. Oh yeh: I can hear it now i.e. "but it's the same thing". Well. Mathematically (laws of physics) it is and should be. But for some or the other reason: using the 12th fret harmonic seems to get things more "perfect". The argument on another thread to which I refer was was along the line of ensuring that the open string should agree with the 12th fret harmonic (and no idea where that idea came from) (although to be fair: ALL THREE must match up i.e. open string, 12th fret harmonic, and 12th fret fretted note).

Of course (and it goes without saying) that you need a GOOD CAPO i.e. sturdy and one where you can adjust the pressure (once you've set the pressure to "as close as makes no difference" to the pressure that you normally exert when playing then just intonate using this method and it ensures standardisation across guitars / strings etc. etc. etc.).

Oh and it is true: no point in intonating with the guitar lying flat i.e should be in the playing position (whatever the norm is for you) i.e. I've proved this to myself beyond any reasonable doubt.

Once again: just my two cents which may (or may not of course) help some.

Regards,

Dale.

P.S.

If you TRULY want to get anal about all of this you COULD go this route: http://www.truetemperament.com/!!! I've not "lost the plot" to this extent (not YET anyways) (as he bravely contemplates asking Buddy about this for his next Blaze)!!! LOL!!! And not sure if rock 'n roll / metal would sound the same either!!!

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Setting Intonation "Perfectly"

All I have to say is that the guitar is not a "perfect" instrument. I intonate all of my guitars by ear and that gets me close enough that all my notes sound in tune.

If your gonna try to get everything perfect, might as well get a compensated nut, choose saddle materials that sound best with each string, those true temperament frets, Just intonation (you'd of course need 24 guitars to have one for every key), and a set of strings where you find the guage perfect.

Or take the legends, a good bit of them also went by the "close enough" mentality, giving them the time to work on their skills rather than spend it perfecting their equipment.

 

[Ayrton]

Re: Setting Intonation "Perfectly"

Setting the intonation with the guitar flat on the bench is fine. In tune is in tune, so the position of the guitar is irrelevant in this case.

I never understood the need to over complicate things. The open note should match the 12th fretted note and then to confirm you can use the 5th and 17th notes.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Setting Intonation "Perfectly"

There is no perfect intonation. It's all a compromise. A piano is tuned with several compromises to sound more or less right from string to string and from key to key when playing chords and intervals. Violin and horn players compensate individual notes without thinking about so it sounds right as they play. So do guitar players through bending strings and finger/wrist vibrato although the guitar is fretted. And that is just western stacked thirds harmony structures. If we get into eastern harmony and scales, or quartel harmony, what we think sounds in tune goes right out the window. Octaves and fiths are a matter of physics but how they get divided up and mixed up is it up for grabs.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Setting Intonation "Perfectly"

And setting intonation at the 12th means it will only be good there - pretty much guaranteeing it will be atrocious by the time you get down to the first few frets for open chord playing.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Setting Intonation "Perfectly"

Hello all.

Christopher:

If your gonna try to get everything perfect, might as well get a compensated nut, choose saddle materials that sound best with each string, those true temperament frets, Just intonation (you'd of course need 24 guitars to have one for every key), and a set of strings where you find the guage perfect.

I had to laugh (but points taken). Those would be SOME guitars though let's face it (mebbe a bit to "perfect" for my genre).

My use of the word "perfect" was used in jest (it sort of seemed to upset somebody else on another thread last night so I just thought I'd joke around a bit here is all). I guess (once again) what I've detailed in my first post is just an "easier" way for me is all. I have thought about those true temperament frets though!!! LOL!!! Only joking (and oddly enough posted about this very thing somewhere else earlier today).

AlexR:

pretty much guaranteeing it will be atrocious by the time you get down to the first few frets for open chord playing.

I honestly, pretty much, don't have this issue at all really. Then again:I'm sure my string heights at the nut are right and in one case even had the first fret made slightly smaller as it was definitely out. But yeh: I know the guitar (or any fretted instrument) is pretty much "imperfect" but to me there is no other instrument in the world as wonderful "just the way it is".

To everyone else:

Some really great information there. Thank you. Actually I've heard it said (read it somewhere too I think) that it's for this very reason that violins etc. are unfretted???

Anyway. Once again: just a tip / idea from me that works for me (makes me feel more comfortable doing it this way anyway). Truth be told: started playing the piano when I was just three and trained classically later in life so it did take a lot of getting used to in finding how imperfect a fretted instrument can be given all of the variables. But as I say: no instrument in the world like it!!!

Thanks again for all the responses.

Regards,

Dale.

 

[Ayrton]

Re: Setting Intonation "Perfectly"

And setting intonation at the 12th means it will only be good there - pretty much guaranteeing it will be atrocious by the time you get down to the first few frets for open chord playing.

No, not really. I can fret the 5th, 12th, and 17th and all are in tune.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Setting Intonation "Perfectly"

Roll one up and smoke it. You'll feel better.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Setting Intonation "Perfectly"

All I have to say is that the guitar is not a "perfect" instrument. I intonate all of my guitars by ear and that gets me close enough that all my notes sound in tune.

The ear is important. I use a combination of tuner and 'by ear' for intonation, and check at a few frets, not just the 12th. I want it to sound right to me when I'm playing throughout the neck.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Setting Intonation "Perfectly"

Yes. I start by setting the intonation at the 12th fret so the fretted note and harmonic are in tune.

But after that I fret notes up and down the neck and readjust the intonation to reach a compromise.

Seems like fretted notes are often sharp...especially on the G string.

It’s a process.

I use a Snark. Works great.

 

[dave74]

Re: Setting Intonation "Perfectly"

The manner it responds when you fret notes close to the nut depends greatly on just how high you have the nut set above the first fret.

If you're someone who sets the nut to have ample clearance, then the 12th h/f system is going to do much better then it does for someone who likes a paper-thin clearance.

 

[6stringerguy]

Re: Setting Intonation "Perfectly"

On the term of true temperament I’ve done some research and spoke to several luthiers who swear against true temperament because the material used to make true temperament frets is incredibly soft in comparison to even standard nickel frets which mean you need to refret the guitar way more often and this cost the owner way more money to maintain the instrument
Also I don’t think intonation and all that stuff is such a thing to work about, set it up or get it up to as close as you can and if no one can tell then you’re fine.
For what I do I just set the intonation at the 12th fret and if it sounds good then great done

 

[Ayrton]

Re: Setting Intonation "Perfectly"

Seems like fretted notes are often sharp...especially on the G string.

I tune just a hair flat so when I fret it pulls in tune.