Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

[ghostmaker]

Ok so here's my story.

I got a PRS Custom with Dragon 1 pickups. It sounded awesome. But, it had a rotary knob selector, which I had replaced with a 3 way toggle switch. The tech warned me it could give phasing issues but I wanted it done anyway. When I got the guitar back, the Dragons had gone from sounding massive, to twangy, basically single-coil like.

I was told that to correct it would involve taking the pickups apart and back together. I decided to just install some Duncans I had been interested in trying anyway, which have worked nice. However, I've decided if it's possible to have the Dragons corrected and get the guitar's original sound back, I'd like to do so.

How would I go about reinstalling or modifying the Dragon I's so there are no phasing issues with the 3 way toggle? I'm not very good with electronics, but if it's not too difficult a task I'm willing to give it a shot. If it is above my skills, what should I expect a tech to charge? Roughly the cost of a pickup swap, x2 perhaps?

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

It sounds like an incompetent tech wired the guitar wrong. I don't know why you couldn't have two Dragons with a 3 way switch?

If I'm reading Stewmac's schematic correctly red+red equals series wiring, white is hot and black+bare equals ground. The diagram I have below should work and the only thing you might need to swap is the white or black wires on one of the pickups if the center position is out of phase.

http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Electronics/Color_codes/i-prs.html

 

[PonyKiller]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

IIRC the magnet on one of the PRS pickups is reversed to be able to get combinations like inner/slug or outer/screw coils on both pickups at the same time and still be hum cancelling while using the rotary switch.

The pickups by themselves should sound exactly the same with the rotary and 3 way switch. If there are any phasing issues, only the middle position of the 3 way should be affected.
If the pickups by themselves don't sound like before then maybe the problem is somewhere else or maybe the sound you really liked was only possible to get with the rotary switch.

When you have phasing issues, usually swaping a pair of cables on one pickup fixes the problem BUT I'm not entirely sure if this is possible when the magnet has been flipped/reversed.

 

[ghostmaker]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

Thanks for the responses so far. Ok, so what I'm getting is it's a possibility that either it was a poorly done job, perhaps the pickups were wired as if they were meant to be in split mode, or that they can only have their full sound when wired to the rotary knob?

 

[PonyKiller]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

You should be able to get their "full sound" with the 3 way switch. Phasing issues are only apparent when the 2 pickups are mixed together. On the 3 way, only the middle position is affected.

If you are getting a thinner or weaker or brighter sound while using only 1 pickup (either bridge or neck) and it's still humbucking (not noisy as a single coil), then maybe they were wired in parallel instead of series. Maybe the wires got mixed up. Check if both red wires are wired together and insulated as shown in the diagram 3 posts above.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

IIRC the magnet on one of the PRS pickups is reversed to be able to get combinations like inner/slug or outer/screw coils on both pickups at the same time and still be hum cancelling while using the rotary switch.

Correct. A magnet needs flipped to get normal phase.

 

[ghostmaker]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

Is flipping the magnet a simple job or is it something I should leave up to a tech?

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

I'm not sure which pickup PRS reverses the magnet on. Find that out first.

If the pickup is nickel covered, it also requires you to dremel the solder spots and remove it.

To flip a magnet, you loosen the 4 brass bolts on the bottom of the base plate.
Pry up the tape carefully so you can see the magnet between the coils and plate.
Use something like a mini flat head to break it free of it's wax seal, and drive it out lengthwise. Don't stick the screwdriver through your palm! And don't accidentally scrape the copper wires. Get the magnet out, and turn it around lengthwise. Center it and tighten the 4 brass bolts. Scoot the tape back down over the side.

 

[sharkchum]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

Hold up. If you want to use the PRS pickups you shouldn't have to flip the magent for a 3 way. The hot wire on the bridge pickup isn't the same color as the hot wire on the neck picups, at least on the ones that come in the 5 way rotary switch guitars. You should be able to find it on their website.

 

[ghostmaker]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

So, if I get a tech who knows what they are doing to just reinstall the pickups, they SHOULD sound like full on humbuckers (no twangy single-coil tone) when the selector is on each pickup individually? I really don't use the middle position much so if there are any issues there it won't bother me a whole lot.

 

[AudioWonderland]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

So, if I get a tech who knows what they are doing to just reinstall the pickups, they SHOULD sound like full on humbuckers (no twangy single-coil tone) when the selector is on each pickup individually? I really don't use the middle position much so if there are any issues there it won't bother me a whole lot.

That's correct. Are you getting hum when using the pickups individually?

 

[AudioWonderland]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

Hold up. If you want to use the PRS pickups you shouldn't have to flip the magent for a 3 way. The hot wire on the bridge pickup isn't the same color as the hot wire on the neck picups, at least on the ones that come in the 5 way rotary switch guitars. You should be able to find it on their website.

True. This is where a lot of techs inexperienced with PRS wiring stumble

 

[ghostmaker]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

That's correct. Are you getting hum when using the pickups individually?

It's been a little while since I had them in but if I remember correctly there was a hum. That's just the best way I could describe it, they sounded like single coils when I got the guitar back, when before they sounded like huge, heavy humbuckers.

The exact tech who did the job was not available but the one who was there said that it's possible it could be that the pickups were designed to work specifically with the 5 way rotary and could require modification to work correctly with a 3 way. I just used it as an excuse to try out some Duncans I had been wanting to try. :22:

 

[sharkchum]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

So, if I get a tech who knows what they are doing to just reinstall the pickups, they SHOULD sound like full on humbuckers (no twangy single-coil tone) when the selector is on each pickup individually? I really don't use the middle position much so if there are any issues there it won't bother me a whole lot.

Yes, they can be wired like regular humbuckers with a 3way and use a push pull to split them with no crazy out of phase sound if you know what the hot wire is on each pickup.

 

[AudioWonderland]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

It's been a little while since I had them in but if I remember correctly there was a hum. That's just the best way I could describe it, they sounded like single coils when I got the guitar back, when before they sounded like huge, heavy humbuckers.

The exact tech who did the job was not available but the one who was there said that it's possible it could be that the pickups were designed to work specifically with the 5 way rotary and could require modification to work correctly with a 3 way. I just used it as an excuse to try out some Duncans I had been wanting to try. :22:

Those pickups most certainly can work with the 3 way. I have a set wired up with a 3 way and coil splits in one of my PRS'. Sounds to me like they wired up the coil split to the switch instead of the hot wire. Easy to check with a multimeter. With the ground lead of the meter connected to the ground wire of the pickup test the other 2 leads. One will read roughly double the other one. The higher reading lead should go to the switch. The other is the tap and should be taped off if you are not doing coil taps

Try this. Select the bridge pickup. lightly tap a pole piece of each coil with a small screw drive. you should hear a loud thump through the amp from both coils. If you only get that from one then they have wired up the tap instead of the hot wire and you are in fact running on just one of the 2 coils

 

[ant_riv]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

The advice you received is accurate.

PRS uses a different color code from SD and others. If your tech doesn't know better or doesn't check his work (which it sounds like neither this guy or his buddy know how to do) it is very common to wire PRS pups incorrectly. It also sounds like they were more than happy to make the sale on some new pups.

You can make these work for you. Used Dragon pups are selling for good bucks and it isn't because they are weak sounding. Check the PRS website, they have good instructions.

More important, find a competent tech.

This is IMO and YMMV.

 

[ghostmaker]

Re: Setting PRS Dragon 1's in phase?

Just wanted to follow up:

I got my old sound back! That's what it must have been, they weren't wired correctly the first time around. The pickups sound great individually. Combined they still have that twangy-ness but that's not a major issue to me as I almost never use the middle position.

Thanks again guys.