Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

[Franco]

Hi everyone,
I bought an SD APS1 sold to me as a Middle pickup RWRP.
However, the sticker only a letter combined with a few numbers written (a code?) and it also says APS1 plus the manifacture date which is something like 20100820 (I think it was 2010). There is no reference to neck, middle or bridge or that it is RWRP, at least that I am aware of.

I bought this pickup to place it in the neck position. I am using a superswitch 4-pole to achieve a customized "Neck + Bridge" in position 4 and "Bridge + Middle" in position 2. With both neck and middle RWRP, both of this combinations would be hum-cancelling. So, this was the reason I bought a (I suppose) RWRP middle pickup to place in the neck.

But I am having issues :

1- When I bought it i placed it straight into the neck position and I was using the factory normal 5-way swtich. The 4th position "Neck + Middle" combo was out-of-phase with the typical thin sound.

2- Now that I have installed the 4-pole Super-switch I am having the same issue with the "Neck+Bridge" sound which is also out-of-phase with the typical thin sound. I am 100% sure it is wired correctly in the switch which I am used to place in several guitars to achieve customized sounds.

It is curious that the "Bridge+middle" sound is in normal phase and is hum-cancelling, as it always has been. So, I am pointing into an issue with the neck single coil (which I don´t know if it RWRP). Something is not right and, before I swap the leads of it, I´d like to understand what is the issue !

Can someone help ?

 

[Artie]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

Note that RWRP has only to do with noise cancellation. Not phase or polarity. They're two different issues. Your pup could be "normal" or RWRP and still be in or out of polarity. (Often, mistakenly referred to as phase.) So, just double check your wiring, or better yet, test for polarity/phase using a meter. It's pretty simple. I'll tell you how if you need to know.

 

[Franco]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

Dear Artie... could you please tell me what I should do to test it ?

I´d really like to have hum cancellation in position 2 (bridge + middle) and 4 (Neck + middle). I bought the 4-pole switch and the APS1 (thinking it was a middle with RWRP) just to place it in the neck position and achieve this.

I´ve got everything properly wired in the 4-pole switch. I did the connections which are pretty simple.

The issue has to be in the neck pickup (which is an APS1 middle, not sure now if it is RWRP). The bridge should be fine as "Bridge + Middle" sounds normal and with hum-cancellation which is the normal sound in any strat. I think this is a good indicator that Middle and Bridge pickups are fine, isn´t it? I can be wrong...
But "Bridge + Neck" sounds out of phase, nasal and thin...

I have to study the whole topic in more depth, but what I want to achieve with this guitar is fairly simple, I guess.

What do you recommend ?

Note that RWRP has only to do with noise cancellation. Not phase or polarity. They're two different issues. Your pup could be "normal" or RWRP and still be in or out of polarity. (Often, mistakenly referred to as phase.) So, just double check your wiring, or better yet, test for polarity/phase using a meter. It's pretty simple. I'll tell you how if you need to know.

 

[Blille]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

What are the other two pickups in the guitar?

 

[Mincer]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

So bridge & neck are out of phase, but neck & middle aren't? Is bridge & neck position 3? I did something like this awhile ago (although it was HSS), and wrote about it in a blog. It also needed a rw/rp neck pickup.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

if the neck is out of phase with the bridge, flip the wires on the neck pup. you can check polarity by putting the tops of two pups together. if they attract, they are opposite

 

[Franco]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

This guitar is a squier. It came from factory with those double-magnet ceramic single coils.

Currently, the other two pickups on these guitar are :

- Middle : RWRP from "DONLIS". This is an 6.41K Alnico 2 chinese single coil. As a coincidence, it has the exact same Dc resistance as the APS. Sounds pretty nice, TBH.
- Bridge : Generic chinese P90 with swapped magnets. Magnets are UOA5+A3. I am not sure if the magnets are correctly placed, but I set them so that I would hear the normal fat sound of the P90 and at the same time, they would be in phase and hum-cancelling with the previous squier stock middle pickup. Took a while, but i managed to get there, I guess, at least to my ears. As a coincidence, with the new middle pickup "DONLIS", it still remains in phase and hum-cancelling.

I am starting to think that the Bridge and Middle pickups have a different polarity (?) when compared to the neck pickup. That´s why they work togheter and the Duncan does not match them.

What are the other two pickups in the guitar?

 

[Franco]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

I was thinking about that...
But I would like the neck to be hum-cancelling with the bridge.

Do you think a compass could help ?

I believe the middle and bridge share the same characteristics and when compared to each other, the middle is RWRP with the bridge.
But, my neck pickup is not oriented this way. I bought it as a RWRP middle, but I guess not only it should be a regular neck pickup, it also has a different orientation.

if the neck is out of phase with the bridge, flip the wires on the neck pup. you can check polarity by putting the tops of two pups together. if they attract, they are opposite

 

[Franco]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

Some people count these upside down. But they are :

1 - neck
2 - Neck + Bridge
3 - Not used for now. It will be a reversed neck in series and out-of-phase with the bridge. Then, this combo will be in parallel and in phase with the middle pickup. I need to clarify the issue first before this. It is a 3 pickup and a bit complex combo.
4 - Bridge + Middle
5 - Bridge

So bridge & neck are out of phase, but neck & middle aren't? Is bridge & neck position 3? I did something like this awhile ago (although it was HSS), and wrote about it in a blog. It also needed a rw/rp neck pickup.

 

[Blille]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

I am starting to think that the Bridge and Middle pickups have a different polarity (?) when compared to the neck pickup. That´s why they work togheter and the Duncan does not match them.

That’s what I was thinking when I asked. Unfortunately I’m not familiar with those pickups so I can’t help but Duncan is RWRP to Fender.

 

[Artie]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

Duncan pups do tend to be reverse polarity from Fenders. (Even the cheaper Squier versions.) If you have access to a meter, do this: (You really need clip-on leads, or a friend, to do this.)

Clip, or hold, the meter leads to the pup wires. Preferably, while not connected to anything else. Put your meter on its lowest DC voltage range. Bring a screwdriver up against the pole pieces. Gently. On a Duncan, you should see a small positive voltage in the millivolts range. Now yank the screwdriver away, and you should see a small negative voltage. If it's a digital meter, you'll see a quick flash of the "minus" sign. If the other pups do the opposite, (negative as you approach, and positive as you yank away), then you'll need to reverse the leads on one or the other. Doesn't matter which one as pups have no absolute polarity.

That will help resolve the polarity, or out-of-phase problem, but has nothing to do with any position being noise canceling. That you'll have to test just by wiring everything up. Actually, there is another way, but it's a bit difficult to explain here.

 

[Franco]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

That’s what I was thinking when I asked. Unfortunately I’m not familiar with those pickups so I can’t help but Duncan is RWRP to Fender.

I think fender changed the polarity after some point in time.
Duncan I believe still uses the old Fender polarity.

 

[Franco]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

So your test should work to test the polarity. I´ll do that.
Also, I am buying a compass today and will do this to test the polarity :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pi0i0WP4_M

This test works to identify the phase :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcuvBRZPpow

With these two tests, an answer will have to come up. I think I will reverse the neck´s wires for now and re-test. I was about to do this "blindly" yesterday, but I need to know the science behind it and this is the time.
It should the easiest thing to do. I´m affraid it won´t be hum-cancelling.

Duncan pups do tend to be reverse polarity from Fenders. (Even the cheaper Squier versions.) If you have access to a meter, do this: (You really need clip-on leads, or a friend, to do this.)

Clip, or hold, the meter leads to the pup wires. Preferably, while not connected to anything else. Put your meter on its lowest DC voltage range. Bring a screwdriver up against the pole pieces. Gently. On a Duncan, you should see a small positive voltage in the millivolts range. Now yank the screwdriver away, and you should see a small negative voltage. If it's a digital meter, you'll see a quick flash of the "minus" sign. If the other pups do the opposite, (negative as you approach, and positive as you yank away), then you'll need to reverse the leads on one or the other. Doesn't matter which one as pups have no absolute polarity.

That will help resolve the polarity, or out-of-phase problem, but has nothing to do with any position being noise canceling. That you'll have to test just by wiring everything up. Actually, there is another way, but it's a bit difficult to explain here.

 

[Franco]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

Yesterday I was using a compass and it came out like this :

Neck : North
Middle : South
Bridge : North

I haven´t yet made the multimeter testing. I will try to gor for it along the weekend.

I spent sometime reversing the leads of the neck pickup and the sound of Neck + Bridge came out in normal sounding this time, but, as I was expecting, it is not hum-cancelling. They are probably in the same phase, but, they have different polarity and this is probably the reason why I had to change the leads of the neck pickup, so that they could share the same phase and same polarity. And this is also why they´re not hum-cancelling with each other. To achieve this, one of them would have to be RWRP (different phase and different polarity) when compared to each other. At least the thin sound is gone.
I guess to achieve I would have to leave the leads of the pickup as before (white is hot, black is ground) and turn upside down each of the magnet pieces of the single coil. Maybe...

Also, because Bridge + Middle are hum-cancelling, this makes me think that the Middle pickup is RWRP (different phase and different polarity) when compared to the Bridge (and vice-versa).

Another solution would probably be adding another RWRP Middle pickup (just the same as I have in the middle position right now), a south oriented coil and placing it in the neck slot.

It´s easy to change a pickup´s polarity. But, regarding the winding (phase), swapping the leads is enough ?

So your test should work to test the polarity. I´ll do that.
Also, I am buying a compass today and will do this to test the polarity :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pi0i0WP4_M

This test works to identify the phase :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcuvBRZPpow

With these two tests, an answer will have to come up. I think I will reverse the neck´s wires for now and re-test. I was about to do this "blindly" yesterday, but I need to know the science behind it and this is the time.
It should the easiest thing to do. I´m affraid it won´t be hum-cancelling.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

swapping leads changes the phase, nice and easy

when you say turn the magnets upside down... you dont mean pull the rod magnet out and physically flip it do you? youll ruin the pup. you can have the pup remagnetized to the proper orientation (or do it yourself if you have the right stuff)

 

[Franco]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

Jeremy, I was think about that, but I know the risks of damaging a little coper wire inside and say goodbye to the pickup.

I actually never thought about changing the magnet orientation the same way it is done to bar magnets. Good idea.

But how easy is that to do in a single coil ? Any tutorial you would recommend? Would I change the rod magnet´s strenght and ruin the tone ? Hm...:scratchch

swapping leads changes the phase, nice and easy

when you say turn the magnets upside down... you dont mean pull the rod magnet out and physically flip it do you? youll ruin the pup. you can have the pup remagnetized to the proper orientation (or do it yourself if you have the right stuff)

 

[jeremy]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

if you pull the rod magnets of the aps, you will kill it. if nothing else, when you pull the e string poles, the coil will collapse and the pup will be ruined.

inorder to flip polarity you need a pair of strong magnets or an electromagnet. if done properly, you wont lose strength or ruin tone. many people use a pair of 1" neodymium disk magnets but there are other options as well. if there is a local pup winder, they should be able to do this for you

 

[Franco]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

Actually there´s no pickup winder here in Portugal that I know.
That´s why most of the stuff I do myself.

I think a neodimium disk is cheap. I may order one online. Then, I guess I have to read a tutorial. For sure I dont want to damage that APS. It should sooooo good in my Squier. It´s a 6.4K.
I am also not a high-gain user. Well, sometimes, but most of the time, I am at AC30 distortion levels or JTM. If I get far from the amp, Neck+Bridge is almost not humming. It is just a matter of preciosity.
Looking for a tutorial. It´s never too much to learn
Cheers

if you pull the rod magnets of the aps, you will kill it. if nothing else, when you pull the e string poles, the coil will collapse and the pup will be ruined.

inorder to flip polarity you need a pair of strong magnets or an electromagnet. if done properly, you wont lose strength or ruin tone. many people use a pair of 1" neodymium disk magnets but there are other options as well. if there is a local pup winder, they should be able to do this for you

 

[jeremy]

Re: Seymour Duncan APS-1 (neck? Middle? RWRP?) I am having a phase issue

two neo disks is a fine way to charge magnets. ive done it for years