Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

For a Strat, I would only shield the cavities, not the the wires themselves (no co-ax), because any shielded wire will give you capacitance when you could have instead shielded the cavity. There is not much point to shielding both the cavity and the wire, one shield is enough. I'd only use shielded wire if I didn't want to bother shielding the cavity for some reason, or in the case of a Les Paul or Tele where you can't shield the wire channels (unless you pour conductive paint down them maybe), but it's not necessary one way or the other. Noise doesn't bother me, personally.

You don't have to worry about capacitive coupling between single coils pickups and shielded pickup cavities, because there is enough of an air gap to keep the coupling low. PAF's and Tele neck pickups has very close shielding and the capacitive coupling is inconsequential, instead it's the eddy currents that are the problem with those covers. The degree to which a pickup capacitively couples with it's own coil windings goes far beyond that which shielding adds.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

But does the small amount of capacitance from a couple feet of coax really make as much difference as for example, a 10 foot vs 20 foot cable to the amp?
Edit: Even if it did make that big of an effect, couldn't it be fixed my going from 250k to 300k pots? Or even 500k?
 
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Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

But does the small amount of capacitance from a couple feet of coax really make as much difference as for example, a 10 foot vs 20 foot cable to the amp?

Do you know what the pF per foot of the coax is? That info is sometimes available in spec sheets. The total capacitance form the guitar cable is about 500pF, or whatever length of cable you used assuming an average or 30pF to 40pF capacitance per foot. If your internal wiring adds 100pF capacitance, it's like you're adding two extra feet of guitar cable.

Some people like that added capacitance, I think it tends to make a guitar sound nasal toned, though. If you want to avoid, that you want to buy low C cables and just work to keep the guitar's internal capacitance low as well.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

The website says 30.8 pf per foot and given I can't tell the difference between a 15 and 20 foot cable, it doesn't seem like too much of an issue. AND it can operate in temperatures from -40 to 80 degrees Celsius, so how can I go wrong? (That last bit was a joke)
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

So that RG-174 stuff cuts down on interference? I might consider it in future builds. It's pretty cheap too, and that's always a plus.

Well, it's shielded cable and offers a significantly lower capacitance alternative to the vintage braid style cable. Some brands of it are better shielded than others. The Belden, for example, has a true, braided shield. The cheaper stuff is more likely to have a spiral shield with less % coverage. Where a shielded cable will help compared to unshielded, they all will work to one degree or another. Personally, I use a shielded cable if the switch is in a separate cavity from the pots, like with a LP style guitar. If the switch is in the same cavity as the pots, I usually use regular wire. With maybe a run of shielded from the toggle to the jack.

All I know is that there is a lot of capacitance in the wiring of a guitar like a LP where the wiring to and from the toggle is comprised of 3 lengths of vintage style braided wire ... and maybe especially when the pickups have vintage style leads as well (I'm not sure what the typical capacitance of 4 conductor pickup lead is compared to vintage braid). The capacitance could be lowered significantly by running something like RG-174 instead of vintage braid style to and from the toggle to the control cavity. But I don't know if or how much of a difference you would hear. I've never torn out vintage style wire and installed a lower cap wire to directly compare. I don't think I've ever tried this but, you could run a multi-conductor shielded cable (like 4 wire pickup lead) from the switch to the control cavity. I don't know what the typical capacitance of that type is compared to other types of cable/wire. I assume it's a good clip lower than the vintage style wire.

I have a Godin LP-ish style guitar. Noisiest dual bucker guitar I ever recall owning. No shielded wire used at all and the cavities were not shielded. A little while back, I first replaced the non-shielded with shielded wire (RG174 type). It made a difference but it was still a buzz saw. 3 coats of carbon shielding paint got it pretty close to dead quiet. I'm guessing that shielding the cavities but keeping the unshielded wiring would have been more effective than just using shielded wire and leaving the cavities unshielded, as I first did. But that may just apply to that guitar in my environment. By the way, tone changes were subtle at most. They may have been notable if I had shielded the cavities and installed the shielded wire at the same time. I didn't, which may be why I didn't notice any real change.

I don't have the background to explain the physics behind this stuff. Just relaying my personal experiences.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

Did you ever figure out why it made ththat mutch noise? I have a noisy ES-175 where I can physically see that one of the ground wires is detached, but I've never gotten around to fixing it given how annoying it is to do anything with the electronics on a hollowbody.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

Well, it's shielded cable and offers a significantly lower capacitance alternative to the vintage braid style cable. Some brands of it are better shielded than others. The Belden, for example, has a true, braided shield. The cheaper stuff is more likely to have a spiral shield with less % coverage. Where a shielded cable will help compared to unshielded, they all will work to one degree or another. Personally, I use a shielded cable if the switch is in a separate cavity from the pots, like with a LP style guitar. If the switch is in the same cavity as the pots, I usually use regular wire. With maybe a run of shielded from the toggle to the jack.

All I know is that there is a lot of capacitance in the wiring of a guitar like a LP where the wiring to and from the toggle is comprised of 3 lengths of vintage style braided wire ... and maybe especially when the pickups have vintage style leads as well (I'm not sure what the typical capacitance of 4 conductor pickup lead is compared to vintage braid). The capacitance could be lowered significantly by running something like RG-174 instead of vintage braid style to and from the toggle to the control cavity. But I don't know if or how much of a difference you would hear. I've never torn out vintage style wire and installed a lower cap wire to directly compare. I don't think I've ever tried this but, you could run a multi-conductor shielded cable (like 4 wire pickup lead) from the switch to the control cavity. I don't know what the typical capacitance of that type is compared to other types of cable/wire. I assume it's a good clip lower than the vintage style wire.

I have a Godin LP-ish style guitar. Noisiest dual bucker guitar I ever recall owning. No shielded wire used at all and the cavities were not shielded. A little while back, I first replaced the non-shielded with shielded wire (RG174 type). It made a difference but it was still a buzz saw. 3 coats of carbon shielding paint got it pretty close to dead quiet. I'm guessing that shielding the cavities but keeping the unshielded wiring would have been more effective than just using shielded wire and leaving the cavities unshielded, as I first did. But that may just apply to that guitar in my environment. By the way, tone changes were subtle at most. They may have been notable if I had shielded the cavities and installed the shielded wire at the same time. I didn't, which may be why I didn't notice any real change.

I don't have the background to explain the physics behind this stuff. Just relaying my personal experiences.


We can figure out how much of a difference it makes by calculating the resonance from an inductance and a capacitance. Suppose the inductance is 4.5 henries, the pickup's capacitance is 80pF, and the guitar cable is 500pF for a total of 580pF, the resonant peak comes out to 3.1kHz, now add 100pF to that for 680pF total, the peak resonance drops to 2.86kHz, for a loss of 240Hz, which is not a trivial amount.

Rather than use a lower capacitance cable run, I wonder if it might not be better to somehow submerge the channel with conductive pain. It sounds like kind of a mess, though.

Regarding the physics, it's like a regular capacitor. When you have positive and ground metal, such as wire and shielding, closer together, the capacitance increases. When the surface area of those metals are larger, the capacitance increases. When the dielectric constant of the material in between the metals is higher, the capacitance increases. The Gibson style braided shield wire has a high capacitance for several reasons, the center wire is rather thick, so you have a higher surface area on the wire, and since the braided hookup wire is rather this, the center wire and braided shield are closer together. A good guitar cable reduces capacitance by doing the opposite of these things; use a smaller center wire to reduce the capacitive surface, and use thicker cable so that the shield layer is further away from the center wire. Cavity shielding is better than shielded wire, in general, because it puts a lot of distance between the lead wire and shield metal.

Guitarists tend to the thicker gauge hookup wire because it seems more substantial and vintage looking, but the smaller gauge wire you see in low budget guitars is technically super in terms of capacitance, in that the finer wire presents less surface area with which is can capacitively couple to nearby shielding. That stray capacitance between the hookup wire and the cavity shielding is low enough with either, that it doesn't really matter which is used.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

The Gibson style braided shield wire has a high capacitance for several reasons, the center wire is rather thick, so you have a higher surface area on the wire, and since the braided hookup wire is rather this, the center wire and braided shield are closer together. A good guitar cable reduces capacitance by doing the opposite of these things; use a smaller center wire to reduce the capacitive surface, and use thicker cable so that the shield layer is further away from the center wire.
Correct. Another fun fact is that the hot lead in a 4-conductor pickup cable suffers far less capacitance than the Gibson style single conductor. However...by making the coil junction down at the other end of the cable (red and white soldered together) the total capacitance of all 3 runs through the 4 conductor is "about the same" as if you'd used single conductor. The 4th conductor, being grounded doesn't apply. So when someone says they prefer single conductor, it's very possible they're listening with their eyes. They see the robust cable and assume it's somehow better. (Meanwhile just inches prior to that, the cable is as thin as a human hair) So I am of the mindset that If you're recreating a vintage or otherwise "holy grail" pickup, then you should use the same type of wire, even if it's just as a fashion statement.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

I find this thread confusingly pointless... Just shield the cavity and be done with it. Much easier, efficient and cheaper.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

It's a personal preference, really. Some people really hate losing any high end to cable capacitance and go to extraordinary lengths to minimize it, like this guy http://zerocapcable.com/?page_id=231 , but then you have guitarists like Hendrix who used those coiled guitar chords which add a ton of capacitance, and they seem to appreciate the loss of high end.

Personally, I like clear cleans, so I try to reduce capacitance as much as I can. If I can cut out 70pF, I will.
This is sorta like Transparent or MIT cables from the Hi fi home audio world. Another way to combat signal loss.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

Rather than use a lower capacitance cable run, I wonder if it might not be better to somehow submerge the channel with conductive pain. It sounds like kind of a mess, though.

A pipe cleaner and Q-tips can be used to get into tight places like that. It takes some care, but it's doable and I can think of much more difficult things to accomplish. But there are alternatives which should work for tight spots, like "sleeving" the channel.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

So I take it the general consensus is to just use conductive tape and be done with it? That's what I usually do anyway, but I was just wondering if their was anything to this whole shielded wire thing. I might still use it though if a come across a guitar that is slightly too bright. If anyone does however have any information on shielded wire with a negligible amount of additional capacitance, I'd love to hear it.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

^ I'm not sure desperately trying to avoid minute bits of extra capacitance is necessarily a good thing. Hendrix deliberately used long coily cables as it tamed the top-end. Your amps do the same sort of thing that the long wire does - and its that very 'non hifi' bit that is the definition of guitar tone as we know and love it. Practically every amp tonestack I have come across is subtractive, and nobody ever runs the treble at full open (the signal thats coming into the amp). So there is plenty of highs left from the guitar you can 'add back in' at the amp stage.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

I guess that's true. To be honest, I don't know why I'm going into this much trouble for such a small thing. There's about a mile of wire in a humbucker and there into only so much difference 2 feet can make.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

I guess that's true. To be honest, I don't know why I'm going into this much trouble for such a small thing. There's about a mile of wire in a humbucker and there into only so much difference 2 feet can make.

It's not quite that simple; the whole humbucker might only have 80pF capacitance, and the reason is because as mentioned a few posts up, it's not just proximity, but also area, and even though that shielded lead might only be two feet or less, because it's such larger wire, and has such a large surface area, it can exceed the capacitance of the entire pickup.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

But does it make a big enough difference to be heard in a band situiation, or even better, would the difference be noticeable in a youtube video (with their compression) and an okay pair of headphones? I'm one of those guys that if it doesn't make a major difference, but removes noise, I'm totally fine with it.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

There's no silver bullet that kills all noise. Each technique will only take it down some. But each technique will take it down noticeably, relative to the degree that you are sensitive to the noise. An audience person might not distinguish the difference. A player who has heard their own rig over and over and over would notice something suddenly has changed.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

But does it make a big enough difference to be heard in a band situiation, or even better, would the difference be noticeable in a youtube video (with their compression) and an okay pair of headphones? I'm one of those guys that if it doesn't make a major difference, but removes noise, I'm totally fine with it.

A few posts back I figured you'd get a 240Hz loss at the resonance with an added 100pF. That's a fair amount of treble, but whether you hear that depends on whether you're playing clean or distorted, and whether or not you have a drummer that hits the cymbals constantly. Mid boosts are popular with rock bands because the aggressive rock drumming tends to blot out the high end of a guitar and make it dissapear in the mix. So whether or not you'd hear that 240Hz drop in a live band probably depends a lot on the genre of music.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

In that case I guess it's best not to bother with it, theres nothing wrong with my current way of shielding so I might as well not change anything now.
 
Re: Shielded cavities vs shielded wire

Did you ever figure out why it made ththat mutch noise? I have a noisy ES-175 where I can physically see that one of the ground wires is detached, but I've never gotten around to fixing it given how annoying it is to do anything with the electronics on a hollowbody.

The ground was intact. Fretting or touching the bridge cut the noise just as would be expected when the bridge/string ground is fine. The noise was interference from external sources. There is a ceiling fan and florescent lighting in the space and I'm sure these all contribute some. I'm mostly a "bedroom" player these days and even though the buzz was essentially a non issue when playing the guitar, I can get OCD about it. Easier and cheaper to cure my noisy guitar OCD by dealing with the guitar than it is to deal with the lighting and electrical in the playing space. If a dual bucker guitar is noisier than a guitar with single coils, it's definitely getting dealt with. The Godin was f'n noisy, so I cured it. Not as bad but still annoying enough to irritate me, was a Gibson LP Tribute. I just shielded that one a couple weeks back.

Hollows and semi-hollows are more of a pain, but I wouldn't hesitate to fix one if it had a ground issue or if I wanted to change pickups. Obviously you have to pull the controls out of the body to do the repair so it can suck just to do some simple repair. But if the factory got the stuff in there, then it's doable. It's just a little more work. If it's tight and I cant get my fingers to the spots, I use dental floss to tie to the pots and jack to help pull them back into the mounting holes.
 
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