silicon vs germanium ?

[Deckles]

not that im going to be modding or creating any new pedals, but im wondering the differences between the two and the types of each. like whats different between a bc108 and a 109 or the 2n's and all that stuff.

im aware of the age difference in there use, silicon's basically a newer, more predictable transistor. that brings up another thing, i wasnt aware of there being a difference in diodes and transistors, or that they both were used in pedals at the same time. i keep looking up stuff and it just gets more and more confusing as far as use.

basically, im trying to understand the pedals i have, have read about, and want, but in a deeper way than the sound from my own ear and from demos. maybe so that if i play it at a store, or hear it online, ill know whats going on and what to expect if it were in my rig.

i have a germanium overdrive from ehx, a big muff (russian), i have a nano muff on the way, and a diy colorsound one knob (its using a 108 and 109).

and i know the muff uses a silicon (probably a high gain right?) idk what type. and idk about the germ or the nano muff (its suppose to be like the 1969, but that could mean only so much as they want it to)

any help will be appreciated! i understand a good bit already, i feel, but im trying to understand it from the point of view from someone has HEARD a lot of fuzzes and can tell the difference between overdrive, fuzz, etc. i aint no noob. ive just done a GREAT deal more playing than research, although i do do my research here and there and always before a purchase. i dont understand parts purpose and why you would choose one part vs another.

thanks in advance!

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

Well, I'm not going to be much help on the silicon versus germanium front, but there are quite a few people who like to swap out chips in Tubescreamer-esque pedals. They're all op-amps, which consist of quite a few transistors internally. The amount of gain in an ideal op-amp is controlled by the resistors hooking it up, basically dividing the value of one by the other gives you the increase in signal output. (Note that this is ideal, and in a typical configuration. It's not actually that simple.)

But when people talk about the different part numbers, you'll typically find associated tonal reasons with it. I think the most important one is low noise, and the Burr Brown chip now manufactured by TI is one of the better ones, in my opinion.

Also, the difference between a diode and a transistor is a pretty big one, but it's also pretty small. A transistor amplifies a signal based on the gate. As the signal increases, so does the output, up to a certain point. A diode allows signal to flow through in one direction but not the other. In other words, it will allow a positive voltage to run through (with a slight drop), but it will cut off any negative voltage. The trick though, is that a transistor can be wired to act just like a diode. That's where they're similar. (Plus the implementation, but that's way beyond the scope of this discussion.)

I realize I'm not being any help, but it gives me a chance to talk about this stuff and brush up on some things myself.

 

[Deckles]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

actually, you helped a good bit as far as transistors and diodes. i wouldnt know which pedals use what because even the manufacturing websites dont usually tell you much about that unless what the difference between their fuzz face and another's is in fact the transistors.

i love a good overdrive too. ideal for me would be a cross between the two. like a tube screamer that hits fuzzy edges without being saturated. i intensely dislike the notion of high gain overdrive/distortion that is called fuzz. something like a mxr distortion plus + providing so much gain that i suppose it simply flattens the peak and creates a high gain fuzz. then again, i dislike insane high gain. i do love my big muff, despite its high gain. but at lower levels so that i have the sustain my germ OD doesnt give me, and some good grit.

theres nothing like good grit to some rhythm and wonderful sustain for the live situation. so who knows. in the future, i may nix the variety i practice in tones because it really may be too subtle to matter, and only play with modulation and different gain stages (and pickup switches since i have two very different pickups) and then leave the variety for a more pro recording.

anyway, thats enough about me. it really just got me thinking when i was browsing fuzz boxes. you see fuzz face and muff. and then you see germanium and silicon. obviously those two brackets are semi unrelated. but it got me thinking since you see fuzz faces with these parts and those part, and muffs blah blah blah, and then overdrives using this. and so how do you come about so many different versions of the same thing and whats the difference? i know theres a lot of digital stuff that recreates old things or pushes the boundaries. and then things like features and gain amounts come into play.

i need a grand to buy overdrives and distortions (plus cables and batteries i suppose)

the danelectro pedals are looking pretty sweet sounding because im a huge fan of black flag. black flag seems like they used similar gain, semi cheesy, extremely gritty, tons of gain. something like the pastrami or tbone. and for 20 bucks...maybe on a song

 

[drew_half_empty]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

hear it for yourself

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

^ Wow! Does anyone else think the silicon side is thin sounding compared to the germanium?

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

i can only base my expriences on my ears and i dont know the electronic ins and outs of it. ive owned and or used both germanium fuzzes and silicon.
To me silicon is more predictable, but has less complexity of tone than germanium.
Germaniums are very sensetive to input impedance and tiny changes in your guitar volume.
Silicons seem to be less twitchy.
I like germ bacause it has more unpredictable wildness, but silicon is cool too.
ge ones ive owned/played: Hartman NKT275/fuzz face
si ones ive owned or played: shin ei companion fuzz/foxx fuzz wah/big muff/fulltone octafuzz.

 

[Deckles]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

yeah ive noticed the silicon is was smoother. and i love how germanium, in my experience, has reacted more like a filter, in that it reacts to input dynamic rather than being the input influence. although i suppose you could say its actually both. it got me thinking that something like the seymour duncan pickup boost would be pretty nice to have running into it. because id love to enhance what is already there. i want the option of having it be a part of a heavy gain system, and then simply enhance what the pedal is doing without destroying the germanium quality by overpowering it with another pedal. from here on out is going to cost me some money and a lot of experimentation. but hey, if its what you love!!! plus thats how you get a new tone for every song, kinda like for those of you who taught yourself how to play songs on the classic station

 

[John E Rokker]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

I prefer Silicon for boosting an already distorted channel.

 

[AudioWonderland]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

The difference between Silicone/Germanium Diodes, LEDS etc as clippers is a function of their forward voltage. Germanium has the lowest which means it clips the fastest. Silicone is next and typically LED's have the highest. There are exceptions but is the general rule of thumb.

I have a clone I built that has 2 switchable clipping sections. One side is loaded red LED and the other with silicone diodes. Both symmetrical. The diodes as expected have more gain and is a bit thinner sounding vs the LED's which are fatter and smoother.

I generally prefer LED's for clipping but it really depends a lot on what else is happening in the circuit. I like stock SD-1's for example and those do not use LED's. I bought a DS-1 for modification experiments and the first change its getting is LED in place of the diodes.

 

[tc]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

Have you checked out Analogman's explanation on all the different Fuzzface transistors? It's pretty good.

 

[Deckles]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

The difference between Silicone/Germanium Diodes, LEDS etc as clippers is a function of their forward voltage. Germanium has the lowest which means it clips the fastest. Silicone is next and typically LED's have the highest. There are exceptions but is the general rule of thumb.

.

so this function of forward voltage...is that relative to the input previous the diodes, or is that relative to the output of the pedal to the rest of the chain and amp. i guess, are we talking about how the pedals affect the amp, or do these types of distortion actually clip on their own because they are so low as far as their function. pardon my phrasing, idk how to word these that well. and how does that function relate to the bias and voltage controls within fuzz pedals? if you lower these controls, im aware of the sound you get, and basic drop in volume/output but apparent rise in "distortion."

also, im about to look for that thread

 

[Deckles]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

i dont mean thread, analogman is a pedal brand

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

I think the only types of booster pedals that do not do clipping on their own are the clean boosts. Even tubescreamers with the drive knobs all the way down do a slight bit of clipping. I'd have to take a look at the circuit again, but I'm pretty sure that's true.

If it's not affecting the sound of the amp, it's not clipping. But if it's not affecting the sound of the amp, why are you using it?

 

[Fresh_Start]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

I don't know much about this topic but have been collecting links for a while:

http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/fuzzface/fffram.htm

http://www.smallbearelec.com/HowTos/FuzzFaceFAQ/FFFAQ.htm

http://www.analogman.com/fuzzface.htm

http://fuzzcentral.ssguitar.com/fuzzface.php

http://www.muzique.com/lab/yaff.htm

Cool, more comprehensive resource on pedals, diodes, transistors & clipping:
http://www.muzique.com/lab/main.htm

Cheers,

Chip

 

[Deckles]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

If it's not affecting the sound of the amp, it's not clipping. But if it's not affecting the sound of the amp, why are you using it?

true that. im terrible at technical phrasing. and also at being clear in regular situations.

this stuffs been helpful, especially the analogman page.

has anyone actually played around with the germanium overdrive from ehx? i know its not a fuzz face or traditional type fuzz per se. but i like mine. it just has a few things id like to play around with. the new version they came out with almost seems to be exactly what would do it for that pedal, adding that extra side. but id rather mine not feel like two pedals in one. id just like a little extra gain and volume boost, maybe a touch more fuzziness and breadth without affecting the integrity of what i started with.

either that. or im thinking that when i need that volume ill just use another pedal (live)

i thought i was done with tinkering for awhile!!!

on a semirelated note. whats a good compressors do you recommend for fuzz and classy type overdrive?

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

A lot of the pedal mod dudes like to do assymetrical clipping mods by running a 1n4001 in series with a germanium (or just multiple germaniums) and an led on the other side. The germs are warmer and more dynamic, allegedly.

Forward voltages are something like this:
1n34a (germanium) = 0.4v
1n4001 = 0.6v
Red led = 1.6v (yellow, blue etc are higher)

So the way I understand it is that by stacking germaniums or a combo closer matches the led side. Although I don't know enough to know what the benefit is sound wise people rave about doing this in SD-1, DS-1 and MT-2 pedals.

The Keeley switch allows you to go between different types of hard clippers in the same pedals, so that's a good example of what the difference is.

 

[Deckles]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

A lot of the pedal mod dudes like to do assymetrical clipping mods by running a 1n4001 in series with a germanium (or just multiple germaniums) and an led on the other side. The germs are warmer and more dynamic, allegedly.

Forward voltages are something like this:
1n34a (germanium) = 0.4v
1n4001 = 0.6v
Red led = 1.6v (yellow, blue etc are higher)

So the way I understand it is that by stacking germaniums or a combo closer matches the led side. Although I don't know enough to know what the benefit is sound wise people rave about doing this in SD-1, DS-1 and MT-2 pedals.

The Keeley switch allows you to go between different types of hard clippers in the same pedals, so that's a good example of what the difference is.

so does that mean i could add another germanium into the germ OD and get it a little bit more like a germanium version of a red LED?

itd be nice to have what i need all in one pedal and have the gain knob simply controlling of more gain. i want it less close to my clean sound potentially. the point the pedal is at is nice, but when you adjust the knobs you get a drop and so if it had a higher peak than maybe when you adjust the knobs back you would still have a net increase in output .

so yeah, anyways. what would adding an extra transistor do? or would you add a diode...

and would my overall, output be adjusted? or just more saturated?

i do that whole pixies thing (and nirvana) where you go from soft to hard just like that and old pedals dont allow for that jump to be dramatic

 

[Deckles]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

oh and say i want to replace silicon with germanium transistors. how should i go about this, and is it going to work, what problems might i have, and lets assume im going to get someone else to do it for me

 

[xntrick]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

i have a byoc boost which has 3 different circuits(germanium,silicon, and MOSFET)...the germanium OC75 sounds good but is very noisy even when using batteries, i'd like to replace it with something that is much quieter but not sure where to start looking...

 

[Deckles]

Re: silicon vs germanium ?

i was just just checking out the big muff germanium 4 and i gotta say that basically all i want is the distortion side. i like simple pedals that really make you get the most out of each setting. and having the extra side would be pointless for me. so does anyone know what the difference is in that one particular side and the original OD? aside from an extra transistor, because the left side has one of those, and it doesnt sound much different than my current pedal