So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
- Thread starter John Beef
- Start date
Gibson 1964
New member
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
The wind. The sound. Pretty much everything. The resistance and mag are VERY far from the sum total of a pickup.
The wind. The sound. Pretty much everything. The resistance and mag are VERY far from the sum total of a pickup.
darthphineas
New member
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
But you can always try it and see if you like it
But you can always try it and see if you like it
DarkMatter
Unprofessional Toneologist
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
The way the wire is put on the bobbin matters. Turns per layer, tension, etc.
The way the wire is put on the bobbin matters. Turns per layer, tension, etc.
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
Ok, there are almost infinite ways of laying wire onto a bobbin. Just so know, the wind accounts for perhaps 70% or more of the tone of a pickup. The lower the K reading (and thicker the wire gauge) generally the more the wind matters. Those of us who have done mag swaps report generally minor eq changes with different mag types. Then you have wire gauge too, which obviously has eq influence as well as output.
Ok, there are almost infinite ways of laying wire onto a bobbin. Just so know, the wind accounts for perhaps 70% or more of the tone of a pickup. The lower the K reading (and thicker the wire gauge) generally the more the wind matters. Those of us who have done mag swaps report generally minor eq changes with different mag types. Then you have wire gauge too, which obviously has eq influence as well as output.
darthphineas
New member
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
starting at 54:30
starting at 54:30
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
The wind makes a huge difference, which is why PU makers spend decades learning their craft.
The wind makes a huge difference, which is why PU makers spend decades learning their craft.
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
None of this means that your pickup will sound bad. It may or may not sound like a 78. Go ahead and experiment, and if you like the tone, awesome! Don't worry about what it might or might not sound like.
None of this means that your pickup will sound bad. It may or may not sound like a 78. Go ahead and experiment, and if you like the tone, awesome! Don't worry about what it might or might not sound like.
PFDarkside
of the Forum
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
Thanks for sharing this!
Thanks for sharing this!
Brandenburg
New member
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
well.. they have been around for awhile but arnt very practical i think.. I read about someone experimenting with them way back in '69
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_(music_technology)#Optical
well.. they have been around for awhile but arnt very practical i think.. I read about someone experimenting with them way back in '69
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_(music_technology)#Optical
devastone
New member
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
I'm going to put on my product engineering hat for a second and look at this. Assuming the wire is the same gauge copper, the screws are the same alloy (there aren't really that many to choose from), and the baseplate and bobbins are similar (can't say about these, but I would have to assume so). As far as winding and tension go, I'm 99% sure both companies use machines to wind the pickups. I am also going predict that the tensions are similar, there is probably a small range of tensions that work well for consistently winding pickups, if you wind it too loose it would be sloppy, too tight and you would often break the thin wire during the proces.
So, taking the religion out of it and reducing it to the technology, you will have a pickup that is similar to a 78, within some "tolerance" range, kinda like old Marshalls where the component values would drift one way in one and another way in another, they sound different yet both sound like Marshalls (and these were based on the old Fender Bassman circuit with different output tubes and speaker, but that's another topic). It will definitely have more in common with a 78 than say a Custom or Distortion. You could probably say the same about putting an A2 magnet in a 59 or WLH, you will have a pickup that is similar to a 78, not exactly, but in the same "style" if you will.
I'm going to put on my product engineering hat for a second and look at this. Assuming the wire is the same gauge copper, the screws are the same alloy (there aren't really that many to choose from), and the baseplate and bobbins are similar (can't say about these, but I would have to assume so). As far as winding and tension go, I'm 99% sure both companies use machines to wind the pickups. I am also going predict that the tensions are similar, there is probably a small range of tensions that work well for consistently winding pickups, if you wind it too loose it would be sloppy, too tight and you would often break the thin wire during the proces.
So, taking the religion out of it and reducing it to the technology, you will have a pickup that is similar to a 78, within some "tolerance" range, kinda like old Marshalls where the component values would drift one way in one and another way in another, they sound different yet both sound like Marshalls (and these were based on the old Fender Bassman circuit with different output tubes and speaker, but that's another topic). It will definitely have more in common with a 78 than say a Custom or Distortion. You could probably say the same about putting an A2 magnet in a 59 or WLH, you will have a pickup that is similar to a 78, not exactly, but in the same "style" if you will.
Brandenburg
New member
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
just had a thought about the different variables on pickups.,.
My absolute favorite pup came out of a LP back around '94. I wrapped it up in foam and put it a box with alot of other pickups.. maby 4 or 5 humbuckers and single coils..
then around 2008 or so I needed another 'pup as the sd designed 102b in my dinky was most uninspired and lifeless sound that I couldnt take it anymore.. so I retrieved my box of pickups and decided to go with the gold covered one
.. Been in this guitar ever since
I dont know if its the age that possibly degaused the magnet a bit/loosened the wire a tad OR the fact that it had been stored in a closed box for 20+ years with other magnetic sources,but this 'pup is the smoothest sound and harmonically pleasing to the ears pickup I have ever heard.. Im willing to bet its a combination of everything mentioned.. could be that its just a fluke too i guess..
edit>> 'pup in question is a stamped 1978 TTOP.. odd choice for a dinky but has alot more output then the DCR will lead you to believe
just had a thought about the different variables on pickups.,.
My absolute favorite pup came out of a LP back around '94. I wrapped it up in foam and put it a box with alot of other pickups.. maby 4 or 5 humbuckers and single coils..
then around 2008 or so I needed another 'pup as the sd designed 102b in my dinky was most uninspired and lifeless sound that I couldnt take it anymore.. so I retrieved my box of pickups and decided to go with the gold covered one
.. Been in this guitar ever sinceI dont know if its the age that possibly degaused the magnet a bit/loosened the wire a tad OR the fact that it had been stored in a closed box for 20+ years with other magnetic sources,but this 'pup is the smoothest sound and harmonically pleasing to the ears pickup I have ever heard.. Im willing to bet its a combination of everything mentioned.. could be that its just a fluke too i guess..
edit>> 'pup in question is a stamped 1978 TTOP.. odd choice for a dinky but has alot more output then the DCR will lead you to believe
Last edited:
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
You don't know that. Is it min/nom or nom/max? Basically within 42AWG you're still dealing with the fat 50% and the skinny 50%.
Small variances within this small range DO change the sound. Analysis is all about scale. If your scale is between zero tension and wire breakage, then yes it's a small subset of that range. If you magnify your view to just the lowest and highest tension that winders typically stay within, then yeah there can be "wild variations" that make a tremendous difference in the pickup's final tone.
All that said, I don't mean any hard feelings, I just used your post as a jumping off point. The basics of what you said have some merit. I could drill down on the other aspects as well like alloy and bobbin dimension but as others have said, we can all agree that in some ways this pickup would have similarities to a 78, just the degree of similarity is up for discussion.
Also no one said whether the 78 was fully gaussed or degaussed.
You don't know that. Is it min/nom or nom/max? Basically within 42AWG you're still dealing with the fat 50% and the skinny 50%.
Small variances within this small range DO change the sound. Analysis is all about scale. If your scale is between zero tension and wire breakage, then yes it's a small subset of that range. If you magnify your view to just the lowest and highest tension that winders typically stay within, then yeah there can be "wild variations" that make a tremendous difference in the pickup's final tone.
No, part tolerance drift would be more like a 78 that has a few more or less turns, slightly thicker mean average wire thickness and resistance, etc.
All that said, I don't mean any hard feelings, I just used your post as a jumping off point. The basics of what you said have some merit. I could drill down on the other aspects as well like alloy and bobbin dimension but as others have said, we can all agree that in some ways this pickup would have similarities to a 78, just the degree of similarity is up for discussion.
Also no one said whether the 78 was fully gaussed or degaussed.
Brandenburg
New member
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
why dont we all just agree that there is sorcery in making pickups.. lol so many variables.. dumb luck probably played a part in designing of a good sounding 'pup or 2 .. in the early years, im sure luck played a part in the production of said pickups as well
why dont we all just agree that there is sorcery in making pickups.. lol so many variables.. dumb luck probably played a part in designing of a good sounding 'pup or 2 .. in the early years, im sure luck played a part in the production of said pickups as well
devastone
New member
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
No hard feelings at all Frank.
As far as the wire goes, the OP said it was the same gauge, so everyone using it has to deal with the tolerances.
As far as the other points go, I agree that it isn't the same pickup, my point is more that it will be closer to a 78 than say a Custom, Distortion, whatever. It will be in the same ballpark, not worlds away.
As far as component tolerances go, there was a lot of "drift" in some of the old components in amps which would cause a lot more variation that a few turns in a pickup.
But, that's my <$0.02, you have served as a sorcerer's apprentice and now work your own magic, so you are the expert here and I will default to your knowledge, just wanted to be clear that I wasn't saying it would be the same, just similar.
No hard feelings at all Frank.
As far as the wire goes, the OP said it was the same gauge, so everyone using it has to deal with the tolerances.
As far as the other points go, I agree that it isn't the same pickup, my point is more that it will be closer to a 78 than say a Custom, Distortion, whatever. It will be in the same ballpark, not worlds away.
As far as component tolerances go, there was a lot of "drift" in some of the old components in amps which would cause a lot more variation that a few turns in a pickup.
But, that's my <$0.02, you have served as a sorcerer's apprentice and now work your own magic, so you are the expert here and I will default to your knowledge, just wanted to be clear that I wasn't saying it would be the same, just similar.
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?
I'm not sure you know what I meant, forgive me if this sounds condescending but did you know that within 42AWG that you then have it sorted into min-nom (minimal to nominal) and nom-max (nominal to maximum). You have to think of these as like, two subsets of 42AWG. There are some PAF types made with min-nom and others made with nom-max. It's a trade secret which ones use which wire, of course.