So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?

Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?

I didnt even have to duck and that went way over my head.. haha wish I knew more about the intricacies. If some things in my life were different, I could VERY easily get into either trying to wind pups or trying to build pedals. I love seeing the changes just swapping mags does..
 
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?

I got it. Basically, there are two tolerances of 42 gauge wire - the minimal to nominal tolerance, where the wire can vary from 41.75 to 42 gauge (please realize I'm making these numbers up as I go - I don't actually knows the specs on the tolerances), and you can also get nom-max 42 gauge, where the variance can be from 42 up to 42.75 gauge.

How's that, Frank?
 
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?

Here's some random wire supplier's table, which shows .0002" difference between min, nom, and max. If you're working with min/nom, you're on the thinner side. If you're working with nom/max you're on the thicker side. And all those "builds" are different thickness of insulation. (This isn't plain enamel like a PAF but you get the idea)

http://www.hsmwire.com/PDF/Film_Build_for_Magnet_Wire_32-60_AWG_Single-Quad.pdf

image.jpg

Anyway you can see that just saying you have a 9K pickup wound with 42 gauge wire can mean a ton of things. I don't post this to try to share any pickup makers' secrets, rather it's the exact opposite. I post this to show how pickup makers can have bazillions of things that make them unique, this entire table of wire gauges is BEFORE you even account for winding pattern and tension.
 
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?

No Frank, I don't take you as condescending, I appreciate all of your insight. I hope I didn't sound like I was trying to argue with you, I wouldn't.

I'm familiar with working with tolerances (and often spec them myself on custom parts), usually mechanical, sometimes electrical, I never deal with anything as small as 42AWG thuogh. And you are correct, I expected there to be tolerances of the diameter of wire (and yes, I was ignoring the insulation), I did not realize there were 4 different "grades" (for lack of a better word) of the same gauge of wire, so I stand corrected.

Again, I was talking in broad terms, saying it will most likely be a very cool sounding pickup in the "style" if you will of a 78 or similar PAF-ish pup with an A2 magnet, not that it would be the same at all, forgive me if that's what it sounded like I was saying. I'll bow out of this thread now.
 
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?

i dont think anyone is necessarily wrong here, i think its scope. if you look at the whole breadth of humbuckers out there then a #42 pe 9k a2 pup with similar construction will usually be at least sorta similar, but if you are looking closer/harder or whatever then there can be a lot of difference between two #42 pe 9k a2 pups. depending on the op's view of things, maybe a 9k a2 ssv will be sorta similar to a 78 where as to others it might be drastically different. all depends on how hard ya listen and maybe how much gain ya use since i find you dont hear subtle or maybe even no so subtle differences as you pile on the gain. frank knows i have a ton of respect for him and he makes some great points as usual
 
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?

devastone said:
I'm going to put on my product engineering hat for a second and look at this. Assuming the wire is the same gauge copper, the screws are the same alloy (there aren't really that many to choose from), and the baseplate and bobbins are similar (can't say about these, but I would have to assume so). As far as winding and tension go, I'm 99% sure both companies use machines to wind the pickups. I am also going predict that the tensions are similar, there is probably a small range of tensions that work well for consistently winding pickups, if you wind it too loose it would be sloppy, too tight and you would often break the thin wire during the proces.

So, taking the religion out of it and reducing it to the technology, you will have a pickup that is similar to a 78, within some "tolerance" range, kinda like old Marshalls where the component values would drift one way in one and another way in another, they sound different yet both sound like Marshalls (and these were based on the old Fender Bassman circuit with different output tubes and speaker, but that's another topic). It will definitely have more in common with a 78 than say a Custom or Distortion. You could probably say the same about putting an A2 magnet in a 59 or WLH, you will have a pickup that is similar to a 78, not exactly, but in the same "style" if you will.
Click to expand...

When I started this thread, this is what I was thinking. I appreciate Frank's input as far as all the subtleties that have impacts. Really I'm just trying to dial in a certain guitar and I want to have a mental map of how you can line up the variables and get the tone you're chasing. Many years of swapping pickups and shooting in the dark have left me frustrated and I want to be able to drill down deeper.
 
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?

John Beef said:
When I started this thread, this is what I was thinking. I appreciate Frank's input as far as all the subtleties that have impacts. Really I'm just trying to dial in a certain guitar and I want to have a mental map of how you can line up the variables and get the tone you're chasing. Many years of swapping pickups and shooting in the dark have left me frustrated and I want to be able to drill down deeper.
Click to expand...
One of the things that some folks neglected that is definitely not voodoo or witchcraft is wind pattern. I know enough to know it makes a tremendous difference and that it does enable the winder to voice a pickup a bit more than you can tell from a spec sheet. In some since it is an invisible variable to the consumer as it is a trade secret in general I believe.

IMO, this is where the art comes in and where we as the consumer have to listen to the winder.
 
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?

Almost every post here is correct in some way. However, the real answer is: No one knows for sure.

You'll just have to perform the swap and see what you think.

It could come out sounding very similar to a '78 or it could be worlds apart.

That said, I do think it's a worthwhile modification to attempt and see if you like the results :)
 
Re: So, am I making a 78 here? What would be the difference?

James over at Rewind, specifically winds his T top neck pickup coils with the same 42 guage, but two different tolerance polysol wires. The wire to insulation ratio is different between the polysol on each coil is how he explained it to me. He's experimented quite a bit with it over the years.

All I can say is, the Dude knows what he's doing.
 
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