So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

[SJ318]

Hello,
Whenever a P.Lounge page has threads with a lot of magnet info, ESPECIALLY about RC A4, saying all this "paperwork" was found that shows big orders for this type of material, I must ask why Duncan does not produce a PAF wind with RC A4's and, last but not least, UOA5's & RCA5's?
Steve Buffington

 

[Discharged]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

why Duncan does not produce a PAF wind with RC A4's

They do. It's called the Saturday Night Special

https://www.seymourduncan.com/pickup/saturday-night-special-set

UOA5's & RCA5's?

Duncan is a high-volume seller. Using "exotic" materials would just add to the cost and lower the sales.

It's a business decision, like not offering the '59s with alternative magnets. If they sell well like they do, why change anything? It makes no economic sense.

All the rest is made possible in the Custom Shop... at a different cost.

/Peter

 

[AlexR]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

It depends on a lot of different things.

Apart from the Bonamassa pickups Duncan has never really sought to replicate the PAF.......or at least they have been moving away from it by degrees as the 59 was softened away from its original iteration. What they seem to be doing IMO is to make pickups in the rough PAF ballpark that are less temperamental and suit more styles. Market share in the low output market in other words. This has worked well for them over many years now.

A second point is that if you are going for a tone but using modern materials, then you also might have to change other modern materials such as the magnet (and any other metal alloys) in order to make the pickup work tonally. It would indeed be pointless to make a Billy Gibbons wind and put the 'statistically likely' A4 in there if the A4 doesn't give the wind the tonal characteristics desired from that pickup. As an example the PG (despite having an A2) is a lot more raspy than you'd think an A2 pickup would be.

UOA5 didn't get put in pickups back then anyhow.....but Duncan doesn't use short A2 and A5 either, which are known to be PAF magnets too.

Also, any new pickup that merely is released to make use of another magnet type is really not a great marketing strategy. In my estimation Duncan would only release something where there is a demand or a gap tonally. And merely adding another pickup to a lineup would only serve to confuse in an area where there are already well known and established options.

 

[majewsky]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

Wait... Isn't the Seth Lover set is as accurate to the original P.A.F. as possible? Also the Antiquities built to mimic the few decades of aging process? :scratchch

 

[AlexR]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

^ No. Its built to Seth's original patent design. The machines didn't end up winding anything close to what he designed in almost all cases. Statistically speaking though there could be a pickup that matches the symmetrical winding and neat winding pattern.
The de-gaussing of the Ant magnet doesn't happen to single magnets normally either. Unless you have a vintage p90 where the 2 are set in repelling.

This is not to say they aren't fantastic pickups.....they are.

 

[freefrog]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

Wait... Isn't the Seth Lover set is as accurate to the original P.A.F. as possible? Also the Antiquities built to mimic the few decades of aging process? :scratchch

Having modified, dissected and/or repaired vintage and modern Duncan's as well as Gibson's, I've noticed a few other differences than those mentioned by AlexR, apparently due to a voluntee to improve the original design. Examples among others:

-the oldest Duncan's already included bobbins whose shape differs from the Gibson ones: Seymour seems to have quickly opted for a structure with "recessed walls", probably or possibly designed to avoid the warping effect affecting straight plastic cores under the pressure of wire;

-Gibson pickups feature(d) threaded baseplates. For a while now, Duncan's include screw poles screwed in the bobbins only, and separated from the baseplate thanks to sllghtly wider holes. It probably makes assembly easier and if memory serves me, it has been evoked here as a way to avoid squealing due to mechanical vibrations of the magnetic circuit;

-parts like the keeper bars are not machined in the same way and aren't of the same dimensions than in Gibson models. There's similar variations, slight but still perceptible, in the shape and structure of slugs and screw poles.

I won't dig "criitical" questions like turns per layer, winding tension and alloys used because I don't want to talk about proprietary informations. Let's just say that in my understanding and in my (extremely humble and respectful) opinion, Seymour has always voiced his pickups in his own way, translating his own musical sensitivity. Hey, after all, that's why we like Duncan pickups!

That said, Seymour obviously remains a pioneer and one of the most connected with the spirit behind P.A.F. designs, if we take in account the whole story... See the first post here: http://www.heritageownersclub.com/forums/topic/1356-seth-lovers/?tab=comments#comment-16487

 

[Discharged]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

Wait... Isn't the Seth Lover set is as accurate to the original P.A.F. as possible?

Actually, that's never been the case. Seth Lover and Seymour teamed up to develop a calibrated set of p'ups, being a necessary evolution of the original P.A.F. recipe, using modern materials and mass-production processes.

That's why the Seth neck is a bit underwound and the bridge is a bit overwound, resulting in the A2 as the magnet of choice to keep that elusive "vintage" vibe. The design is closest to perfection in its stock form. But, being the wind itself extraordinary, it takes almost any alnico grade mag swap with full grace.

/Peter

 

[jeremy]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

the wind of many of duncan's "paf" pups are right in the ball park of what a real paf would have had, albeit with much better symmetry and consistent turn count. i tend to like symmetrical coil bridge pups but a little mismatch in the neck can be nice sometimes

 

[AlexR]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

A benefit of the fully symmetric wind being perfect noise cancellation - something high on the list of Seymour's wishlist and design ethic of being more user friendly.

 

[blueman335]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

Duncan is a high-volume seller. Using "exotic" materials would just add to the cost and lower the sales.

It's a business decision, like not offering the '59s with alternative magnets. If they sell well like they do, why change anything? It makes no economic sense.

All the rest is made possible in the Custom Shop... at a different cost.

/Peter

An Accounting perspective: Production C8's and A4 59N's wouldn't lower sales. They may or may not bring about a substantial increase in sales though. But that's offset by them using existing winds and not having to do the R&D they normally would on a new wind. We've already done it for them, and they've mentioned this before with other pickups. Introducing those two PU's, or any other magnet change in an existing PU is as low cost as you can get, almost no cost. There's really not a downside.

Actually, it can work the other way. There's always a certain number of players that buy their first aftermarket PU and if it doesn't meet their expectations, some of them will never buy another from that manufacturer again (I know, I've talked to some of those guys). One less-than-positive experience, and they're done. Those whose match-up of guitar/genre/pickup doesn't give the desired result can be lost for ever ('boomy' '59N in an LP, 'ice pick' JB in mahogany, etc). To lessen that from happening, offering options that can prevent those occurrences could be a savvy business move. Could even print on a A4 '59N box: "Less low end than a standard '59N, best suited for...." Duncan could keep some of those players (not all, but some). A little verbiage on a pickup box could help, especially since most of those guys are shooting in the dark.

 

[AlexR]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

The issue I think comes in the retail sphere - where a dealer has to keep increasing stocks of pickups merely to satisfy being able to sell to someone who will move on if the item isn't currently available.....blame online sellers.

 

[blueman335]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

The issue I think comes in the retail sphere - where a dealer has to keep increasing stocks of pickups merely to satisfy being able to sell to someone who will move on if the item isn't currently available.....blame online sellers.

Duncan has dozens of PU's now, how many retailers carry all of them? Half of them? More than 5 of them? Obviously those other PU models sell, what's a few more? Not like that's going to make the whole thing collapse.

 

[Mincer]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

Honestly, most dealers carry the 50s, the Jazz and JB, and that's it. I ask what they have in stock every time I go in a new guitar store. It is always those 3, but 'they can get anything'. Sigh.

 

[SJ318]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

blueman335 - AlexR - jeremy - Dicharged/Peter - freefrog - majewsky - Pepe -Mincer:
I MUST THANK ALL OF YOU BY NAME. THROUGH THE YEARS, YOU HAVRE HELPED GET SO CLOSE TO THE END OF MY QUEST FOR TONE I LOVE AND HEAR IN MY HEAD..
You are my favorite forum members (I must have forgotten a few, but I'll remember, forgive me) because of your knowledge, experience, so many things I'll never know about the love of my life: Electric Guitar. I did not know many things in the (so far) 13 posts of this thread. Half of what you just said on this thread is news to me. UOA5 New? I didn't know that. Seth Lover not the exact basis of what we now cal PAF's? I did not know that. The SNS had A4's. De-gaussing A2's is NOT normal to the existing sound of original PAF"s? I love Seth Lovers' BECAUSE they take mag swaps that make an audible difference.
If only I could choose between the RCA4 and the UOA5. I'm old now, but I still get excited by the idea of how close I am to "MY" sound (for lack of a better word). I am with blueman335 post #12 - in that a few 59's or a couple others in the PAF wind area where mag changes (RCA4, OUA5, RCA5) can be heard. At home, for EVERYONES' personal pleasure. Heck, - when I used to take the stage 5-6 nights a week for 20 years, once I turned up loud (50 watt BlackFace Bassman head) and stomped on almost any booster around, magnets would have made little difference at the volumes I played at.
Peter, what was the original magnet of choice "back then" for what we cal PAF's. Mystery, or look to A4 mag invoices. Short A2's, A5's?
AlexR-blueman335, I really, really like the Jazz, one of you said it didn't need a mag swap, I bring this up as I have 4 Jazz, 2b 2n, and I could stand just a touch less brashness on the first pick attack, JUST A TINY TINY BIT - not to change the "character", so would a RCA4, UOA5, RCA5 do anything to just nip the harshness, NOT THE HIGH END OR CHARACTER, I hope you are following me and take me seriously. I spend all day every day now home, not allowed to drive, no close friends, half of them have passed, lost a friend last night, so all this is really important to me, guitar is my main pleasure and I play better than I ever have. No, a shrink can't help me. Your suggestions and my many guitars do!
This thread has been great, thanks to all of you,
Steven John Buffington...*what you forum members say has mattered and still matters to me.*

 

[AlexR]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

Thanks Steve!

The beauty of mag swaps is they are as good to you as what your ears say. Its just the same as pickups......I know you have compared your old PAF to the Seth with a different magnet and felt it the same. I was thinking about this when I typed in my post and thinking over how each of us hears different things in pickups. And how people could perhaps have quite different opinions of how close 2 pickups sound to each other even if they were all comparing them in the same guitars and same rigs.

The A4 might be my first port of call for the Jazz.

 

[SJ318]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

Thanks, AlexR,
A recommendation takes hours off of a decision! That UOA5 really works in my Seth Lover for "that sound" I always hear. The RCA5 to, but the RCA5 is more like the PAF I had, really a big upper mid spike on it. Great sound, but the note separation of the UOA5 really gets it great, for home sounds through my Princeton Reverb re-issue. Real Mike Bloomfield stuff. You can really hear the pick attack and note separation, harmonics, well, you get the idea.
Thanks,
Steve Buffington

 

[SJ318]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

AlezR,
I think hearing loss is so variable with musicians especially, we get all kinds of frequencies, bass drum, hi hat, bass guitar, vocals, they are all there.
I have tinnitus pretty bad, always ringing or the ocean washing on shore, so I must hear drastically different than most on this forum, only because I went on the road very young, played a 50 watt Blackface Bassman head through JBL's, two 120's then, went to two 15 inch JBL's for years on 10, we didn't have 11 just yet. But that was 20 years worth. I am making a wild assumption about much of the forum members having that kind of aural abuse, so please tell me if I am full of s**t, my feelings won't be hurt. At 65 I am old enough to have played that way, back then. We knew no other way, we didn't mic stuff back then, the Stars did, but we didn't even have sound guys yet.
Remember Bogan Horns? Well, thanks again for all the info, from everyone else too, I really pay attention, but I do get lost a little from a horrible head accident that happened to me, I went through the windshield, and yeah, it hurt, and I remember every second of it. After that, I woke up in the hospital, eyes actually bleeding. So I sometimes ask the same thing 3 times or ramble (like now). Best regards,
Steve Buffington

 

[AlexR]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

Most seasoned musos would do....especially for those who lived through the 70's and 80's.

I play, but I only was in a band for a short time. So most of my plugged in playing has been at volumes that allow people to live in rooms next to me.
I hardly ever go out and listen to live bands either. So my hearing certainly hasn't been abused like most.

But having spoken to people who have had that sort of abuse - they certainly hear differently to me.

 

[Mincer]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

Thank you!
I think that is why this forum is so great. We all come from different backgrounds and have different experiences. I come here mostly as a pro player and a teacher, and still consider myself a student learning all about pickups, electronics, and music like many people. So I ask a lot of questions, too.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: So much good info on magsnets brings me to a question

The whole Lotta Humbucker is RCA5. A former employee posited on here once that Duncan might have shifted to polished mags to make it easier to assemble - the bobbins would sit flat.