So why ARE tube amps louder than solid state?
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Stevo
Tonus Maximus Pacificas
Re: So why ARE tube amps louder than solid state?
I like Jeff Seal's advice the most.. less talk and more rock
Happy Friday 13th everyone :13:
:smokin:
Actually you integrate the function sin squared x, from 0 to pi. If you know what that means, then it makes sense when you look at it, relative to a peak of a sine wave. I only bring it up because you made a cheap shot at me - I was giving proof that I have a clue - even though it is a waste of my time.
I like Jeff Seal's advice the most.. less talk and more rock
Happy Friday 13th everyone :13:
:smokin:
AdmiralB
New member
Re: So why ARE tube amps louder than solid state?
Call it a cheap shot if you want, I call it a response to someone trying to sound superior - you know that it resolves to peak/square root of 2, which was stated earlier in the thread, so why bother with all the math BS unless you need an ego boost?
I've built plenty of amps myself. No calculus or DEs were required for any of it, and I'm sure you're well aware of that. So why bring it up?
Call it a cheap shot if you want, I call it a response to someone trying to sound superior - you know that it resolves to peak/square root of 2, which was stated earlier in the thread, so why bother with all the math BS unless you need an ego boost?
I've built plenty of amps myself. No calculus or DEs were required for any of it, and I'm sure you're well aware of that. So why bring it up?
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some_dude
Raging BB Gunologist
Re: So why ARE tube amps louder than solid state?
No offence, but after knowing Stevo for awhile through this forum I feel he was just being himself.....and I've never seen his ego get the best of him yet.
On the other hand, if I needed a term to describe the vibe I'm getting from you right now it would be 'ego trip'. So why don't you stop trying to take the piss out of Stevo and quit trippin'?
No offence, but after knowing Stevo for awhile through this forum I feel he was just being himself.....and I've never seen his ego get the best of him yet.
On the other hand, if I needed a term to describe the vibe I'm getting from you right now it would be 'ego trip'. So why don't you stop trying to take the piss out of Stevo and quit trippin'?
devastone
Well-known member
Re: So why ARE tube amps louder than solid state?
Yeah, I have a piece of paper that says I'm full of BS or something from one of those schools and quite honestly barely remember calculus (yeah, I'm old). I was just pointing out that RMS (or also often called average or program power) is not 2.5 times peak power, but peak power divided by the square root of 2 (1.414) or Peak * .714. While still not probably not the best way to rate amps but still much better than using peak ratings. Part of the problem with music is that is is never just a simple sine wave, but for simplicity, a sine wave is used (or assumed) for power ratings.
No egos or anything, just tryin' to be helpful. I don't have time (or the desire) to write a paper on the subject, I would also need to do some research, this kind of thing isn't off the top of my head nowadays (although the basics are kinda like riding a bicycle), I'm more worried about sensors and the like right now, and some electro-mechanical parts that I'm trying to make work together.
Gotta get back to work, but check out this link, it has alot of these answers in easy to digest yet still semi-techie form (my favorite way to read them).
I will also add that alot of the power sections in tube amps are pretty much legacy designs, and it has been assumed since that a 4X EL34 or 4X 6L6 power section is a 100W amp, sometimes they will get rated for 120W or so. It's rarely that that simple and alot of amps put out more than their paper spec says.
*EDIT*Technically, I'm also wrong, as Admiral and Stevo I think both touched on. You can only take the RMS value of the output voltage, then calculate power using P=IV or P=V^2/R or P=I^2(R), so, for example a an amp that puts out say 40Vpeak-peak into an 8 ohm speaker, so that would be 200Wpeak-peak. But taking the RMS value of the voltage, 40V/1.414 = 28.3V, then finding the RMS power, 28.3^2 / 8 = 100.1W. Sorry, I am old, my memory gears occassionally grind. Maybe that piece of paper from school is right?!?!
Yeah, I have a piece of paper that says I'm full of BS or something from one of those schools and quite honestly barely remember calculus (yeah, I'm old). I was just pointing out that RMS (or also often called average or program power) is not 2.5 times peak power, but peak power divided by the square root of 2 (1.414) or Peak * .714. While still not probably not the best way to rate amps but still much better than using peak ratings. Part of the problem with music is that is is never just a simple sine wave, but for simplicity, a sine wave is used (or assumed) for power ratings.
No egos or anything, just tryin' to be helpful. I don't have time (or the desire) to write a paper on the subject, I would also need to do some research, this kind of thing isn't off the top of my head nowadays (although the basics are kinda like riding a bicycle), I'm more worried about sensors and the like right now, and some electro-mechanical parts that I'm trying to make work together.
Gotta get back to work, but check out this link, it has alot of these answers in easy to digest yet still semi-techie form (my favorite way to read them).
I will also add that alot of the power sections in tube amps are pretty much legacy designs, and it has been assumed since that a 4X EL34 or 4X 6L6 power section is a 100W amp, sometimes they will get rated for 120W or so. It's rarely that that simple and alot of amps put out more than their paper spec says.
*EDIT*Technically, I'm also wrong, as Admiral and Stevo I think both touched on. You can only take the RMS value of the output voltage, then calculate power using P=IV or P=V^2/R or P=I^2(R), so, for example a an amp that puts out say 40Vpeak-peak into an 8 ohm speaker, so that would be 200Wpeak-peak. But taking the RMS value of the voltage, 40V/1.414 = 28.3V, then finding the RMS power, 28.3^2 / 8 = 100.1W. Sorry, I am old, my memory gears occassionally grind. Maybe that piece of paper from school is right?!?!
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noth
New member
Re: So why ARE tube amps louder than solid state?
You guys are killin' me! I am first and foremost an amp man, and I'd love to chime in. There is way too much to discuss here in short order. I will try to address some of this as soon as I can make the time, hopefully contributing and clarifying some points...something tells me this thread will still be going.
Meanwhile, don't forget to play!! That's why we're really all here, isn't it?:13:
Noth
You guys are killin' me! I am first and foremost an amp man, and I'd love to chime in. There is way too much to discuss here in short order. I will try to address some of this as soon as I can make the time, hopefully contributing and clarifying some points...something tells me this thread will still be going.
Meanwhile, don't forget to play!! That's why we're really all here, isn't it?:13:
Noth
devastone
Well-known member
Re: So why ARE tube amps louder than solid state?
Back to the original subject, 1W = 1W, it wouldn't be any good as a measurement unit if it wasn't consistent. It is in the way the amp is rated, the speakers, the way it distorts/sounds/reacts when it starts getting close to it's limits, the fact that a tube amp puts out it's maximum (or very close) no matter what the speaker load on it is (provided you set the impedance selector on the amp to match the speaker) but a SS amp is usually rated for it's power into it's minimum load (i.e. 100W into 4 ohms), but that power output goes down as speaker load goes up, the same amp would only put out 50W into 8 ohms and 25W into 16 ohms. That's why you see lots of 200W or more SS amps, they are rated at 4, sometimes 2, ohms. So, to get 100W into a 16 ohm cabinet, you an amp that will put out 400W into 4 ohms. And, some manufacturers do fudge their ratings some, not to be confused with lying, there are ways of creative testing, spec'ing, and rating.
Back to the original subject, 1W = 1W, it wouldn't be any good as a measurement unit if it wasn't consistent. It is in the way the amp is rated, the speakers, the way it distorts/sounds/reacts when it starts getting close to it's limits, the fact that a tube amp puts out it's maximum (or very close) no matter what the speaker load on it is (provided you set the impedance selector on the amp to match the speaker) but a SS amp is usually rated for it's power into it's minimum load (i.e. 100W into 4 ohms), but that power output goes down as speaker load goes up, the same amp would only put out 50W into 8 ohms and 25W into 16 ohms. That's why you see lots of 200W or more SS amps, they are rated at 4, sometimes 2, ohms. So, to get 100W into a 16 ohm cabinet, you an amp that will put out 400W into 4 ohms. And, some manufacturers do fudge their ratings some, not to be confused with lying, there are ways of creative testing, spec'ing, and rating.
noth
New member
Re: So why ARE tube amps louder than solid state?
Truer words were never spoken. Don't get caught up in the specs game...They lie, lie, lie!! Not to mention that they use different measuring techniques and parameters. A sure sign of trouble: a power measurement without specifying into what impedance load. And is it steady state (RMS) or peak? If you see only a peak power spec: run!! You're raw guitar probably puts out more power
utahere:
Noth
Truer words were never spoken. Don't get caught up in the specs game...They lie, lie, lie!! Not to mention that they use different measuring techniques and parameters. A sure sign of trouble: a power measurement without specifying into what impedance load. And is it steady state (RMS) or peak? If you see only a peak power spec: run!! You're raw guitar probably puts out more power
utahere: Noth
Jazz Rock
New member
Re: So why ARE tube amps louder than solid state?
I love when forumites give well documented answers to technical questions like this one. It get so interesting.
Thanks Simon F!
It remindedme of the excellent historical explanation of modern tuning system by Dr Octave a few month ago.
I love when forumites give well documented answers to technical questions like this one. It get so interesting.
Thanks Simon F!
It remindedme of the excellent historical explanation of modern tuning system by Dr Octave a few month ago.
CGord
New member
Re: So why ARE tube amps louder than solid state?
As a window shopper, I'd agree with this. When brand x tube amp & cab costs $2,200.00, a SS amp & cab for $600 becomes very tempting, even though I know I won't be as happy with it. When the SS head & cab are priced as high as the tube competition, I immediately dismiss it. Why bother with SS if it costs the same?
Of course, they're all useless for me. I'm a bedroom jammer, computer recorder, & don't gig. Yet if the checkbook had the means, I'd have a room full of tube amps & cabs. :chairfall
AdmiralB said:
As a window shopper, I'd agree with this. When brand x tube amp & cab costs $2,200.00, a SS amp & cab for $600 becomes very tempting, even though I know I won't be as happy with it. When the SS head & cab are priced as high as the tube competition, I immediately dismiss it. Why bother with SS if it costs the same?
Of course, they're all useless for me. I'm a bedroom jammer, computer recorder, & don't gig. Yet if the checkbook had the means, I'd have a room full of tube amps & cabs. :chairfall
Matt Blackett
New member
Re: So why ARE tube amps louder than solid state?
Great post Jeff! That swords and tequila line--is that from a Riot song? If it's not Riot, I'm going to say Saxon. Am I right?
fwiw....
I do know the answer, but I doubt very seriously most of you would be real interested in the 20 page dissertation to explain it!
Play!!!..and don't worry about stuff lke this!..
Jeff Seal
Great post Jeff! That swords and tequila line--is that from a Riot song? If it's not Riot, I'm going to say Saxon. Am I right?
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