solid state in jazz

[Osensei]

Re: solid state in jazz

Man I saw this old skool Fuchs amp at GC that was off tha figgin chain! It looked like a Fuchs original, basically a modified Fender Twin combo! It looked almost identical to a Twin. But man what a Classic Rock tone! It still had the headroom for the cleans! All of the new Fuchs have custom enclosures now so that thing is probably a relic!

 

[tone4days]

Re: solid state in jazz

another reason i have heard 1st hand from world-touring jazz guys is reliability in the face of highly variable source current/voltage around the world .. frank gambale told me that as soon as he put the mesa rig down and went ss (carvin) he was able to get the same exact tone anywhere in the world and it was bulletproof with no maintenance ... tube amps can be fickle to over/under current/voltage and frequently need bias adjustments upon tube replacements ... and as most of these guys do more daets outside the US than inside, that kinda thing matters

 

[rivera213]

Re: solid state in jazz

But Gambale's overdriven tone is ghastly IMO.

I don't think SS amps work too well for overdriven tones. I can't remember hearing a good one- regardless of the amp. They all sound synthetic to me. I really think if you want a tone where the cleans are "jazzy" but you're able to dial in a great OD tone too, you should look at Cornford.

Although that's dependant on your gigging situation. I don't gig so it'd be great for me.

 

[Simon_F]

Re: solid state in jazz

I read somewhere that Les Paul has been using a Tech 21 Trademark 60 in recent years. Channel 1 of the TM60 does excellent clean and bluesy breakup tones. Very versatile and portable amp.

 

[JohnnyGuitar]

Re: solid state in jazz

That's it.

Also, most jazz players are not so concerned with the adolescent fantasies most of us have. They don't tend to fantasize about standing in front of a Marshall stack with our pants blowing in the breeze from the sheer volume and posing.

Most jazz musicians are purer musicians than most of us, IMO, and the reasons they play has more to do with creating music and less to do with image and teen age fantasy stuff.

So a light weight, great sounding solid state amp that gives them the tone and the convenience of handling is all they need.

If you look at rock n roll as a teen fantasy you can look at jazz as a teen fantasy only from a different kind.
Being too technical and obsessing about pure clean tone is as childish as wanting to stay in front of a Marshall stack.

Folks give jazz too much credit for being a higher form of art or give too much credit to jazz musicians for being more concerned about music (or being more talented, smarter, etc...) and less concerned about pose compared to rockers.

I'm a jazz fan and that is why I hate this sort of false conceptions about jazz.





Back to topic - if you want to stay clean for the whole gig - a SS is a better solution then a tube amp. If you want to get distorted tones tubes tend to work better even if you get the distortion from a dirt box.

 

[gerardotejada]

Re: solid state in jazz

That's it.

Also, most jazz players are not so concerned with the adolescent fantasies most of us have. They don't tend to fantasize about standing in front of a Marshall stack with our pants blowing in the breeze from the sheer volume and posing.

Most jazz musicians are purer musicians than most of us, IMO, and the reasons they play has more to do with creating music and less to do with image and teen age fantasy stuff.

So a light weight, great sounding solid state amp that gives them the tone and the convenience of handling is all they need.

Lew

hey hey hey, that´s a very childish way to see the rock music, rock is´nt only about teenage fantacies, and jazz is not that "heveanly sacred form of art" (no art is so serious), even the baroque muscicians they all alucinate with have a top instrument of a top Italian Luthier (or a french lutier or a Vienese Luthier).
And if you belive that then maybe you think that the sound is the same, wich is not.

About the clean and the overdrive, I dont know If we could say that are the same, ¿maybe the clean of a SS is better than the clean of a tube amp? (for jazz music)


and about the old problem about fingers VS equipment, I think that our fiingers feel more secure if they play through a tube amp (and I only have play through tubes twice in my life!!), because some strange mojo with tube overdrive

Metheny is a master at this! He seldom uses bends when he's playing clean but he can still make his guitar sound as if it's weeping. A clean solid state can do that type of tone all day long. But all of those glorious wave shifting harmonics start to fade once you push a solid state into distortion. What you end up with at that point is a mere fuzz box. Tube amps on the other hand can keep all of these subtleties far into tube saturation. Think Santana Europa or Samba Pa Ti from back in the 70's! That sound was slightly over- driven but full of tonal complexity!

I know! when I lisent to Larry Corryel I think the same way, but outside Jazz I think in Steve Hackett he only uses a Tech 21 Sansamp, a reverb rack and a volume pedal (through a Roland JC) and get a better sound than other fingers have when playing through a Tubeamp.

PD: the meaning of "clean headroom" is the same as "a lot of room for clean"
and you could tell me the translation for "subdued" and "quiet stormish" (it comes from the noun "storm"?

PD2: and there is a solution for Feedback "STAY AWAY FROM THE AMP!!!" but is a pity that not always work

PD3: I ve never tried a distortion box through a tube amp, maybe i should try it

PD4: sorry for the exesive and pointless PDs

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: solid state in jazz

so the overdrive is what makes a tube amp.
but, a tube amp and a solid state can give the same clea tone? if the answer is yes then how do we explain the preference for the solid state in jazz guitar, I lately have been asking me that all I need is a cool good clean cause I been working almost only with fuzz boxes or floor distortions (big muff, pro co rat, colorsound tonebender, visual sound jekyll & hyde) I know I know is to much.

Yes and no. I'm more willing to say it's about sound in the first place. They have different clean sounds. Me, I play jazz/fusion mostly, in terms of what usually comes out when I'm playing what's in my head. You can have a good clean tone with a tube amp (I like my Pro Junior because it's got more character than my silverface Twin Reverb, but then again, it's also lighter and more portable ). Sure, maybe it's portability (I can definitely agree there). Me, however, I'd be willing to take my Twin Reverb if at all possible to the gig simply because I want it with me, but now that I have my Pro Junior.... Still, I'm military so it's not the weight that bothers me (assuming I can roll it to where I need to go, or take my car).

Honestly, just play the amp clean. Play several amps and listen. While I do like solid state cleans, I just sold my solid state amp because now i have a Pro Junior and I like how it sounds a lot.

And don't be afraid to EQ the amp. That's what those knobs are there for. Mostly my Pro Junior's tone knob is at 10 (Stratocaster) or 12 (Schecter).

As for portability, my Pro Junior weighs 20 pounds, and I bet with one of those Neo speakers it would weigh even less. But yes, on average tube amps do seem to weigh more.

So Tube Clean or Sold State Clean?
Pros an Cons of the two and the reason for the preference of solid state in contemporary jazz

Please don't get them started

As many have said in this thread thus far, the amount of clean headroom and the fact there is a pretty "plain" (i don't mean that in a bad way) clean tone which you get from SS amps is what jazzers like Alden, Hall, Benson, Metheny etc prefer SS amps. No breakup. That's probably the only reason (nowadays- i think they have someone to carry their equipment for them..... Ha ha).

And to be honest, not all solid state amps have good cleans. I know that's not what you're saying, I'm just making sure everyone else gets that point. It's the amp's design, not necessarily tube or solid state, that dictates clean or not.

the size and weight issue isnt about sound, its about portability, tube amps are HEAVY and your typical jazzer isnt going to carry something big, bulky and heavy around with them. especially if they are gigging in nyc. in most cases the big name jazz cats dont carry amps with them, they use what is provided for them. tube amps tend to have more tonal variation between units, one silverface twin doesnt sound like the next, ss amps tend to be more consistant.

why would someone use a rat and tubescreamer for a clean sound? i dont understand that.

I agree with Jeremy. Still, I'm stubborn: I'd still take my Pro Junior with me When I go to Korea, I'm checking my Diver's Case full of stuff, and my vertical hanging clothes carrier. I'll pay extra to check my guitar through the terminal (it's worth it to me). I'll hand carry my backpack and my Pro Junior.

That's it.

Also, most jazz players are not so concerned with the adolescent fantasies most of us have. They don't tend to fantasize about standing in front of a Marshall stack with our pants blowing in the breeze from the sheer volume and posing.

Most jazz musicians are purer musicians than most of us, IMO, and the reasons they play has more to do with creating music and less to do with image and teen age fantasy stuff.

So a light weight, great sounding solid state amp that gives them the tone and the convenience of handling is all they need.

Lew

I agree with Lew. Lew isn't stereotyping, he's just keeping it real.

 

[gerardotejada]

Re: solid state in jazz

so you are going to reduce all to portability?
but for Metheny his amp (acustic 136 or something like that) had THE SOUND for him

 

[rivera213]

Re: solid state in jazz

A lot of pro jazz guitarists still use SS amps because they like the sound for sure.

I can't see someone like Jim Hall using an amp which doesn't deliver his exact tone.

But when these guys were amateurs and had to travel across a city playing little clubs, they more than likely chose an SS amp for ease of travel as opposed to delivering the EXACT tone they want.

Some clubs of course had/have their "in house" amps, but not all and jazz guitars have a great natural tone anyway so an un-coloured (as Jeremy put it earlier) clean tone wasn't detremental for them, and often it was a plus.

Now they are pros and can use what they want, then they choose whatever amp they use because of the tone.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: solid state in jazz

I believe Seymour gigs with a solid state amp these days too. Some kind of Line 6.

 

[jeremy]

Re: solid state in jazz

sometimes he uses a line 6 flextone II i believe. i asked about it and was told that if the line 6 sounds good with a duncan loaded guitar then imagine what a good tube amp sounds like.

ive also seen him use a variety of tube amps. when i played with him in montreal he was using a rented/borrowed fender custom vibrolux

 

[Fusion1]

Re: solid state in jazz

I used to play a pretty straight forward jazz amp / speaker setup a Polytone Mega Brain head and a Raezor's Edge One 8 & Stealth 12 cabinet. I loved the clean tones but needed help in the distortion department. I never was happy with the distortion through the Polytone with various pedals but was content enough with a Metal Muff and MXR Doubleshot Distortion. I pretty much stopped using that rig once I tried the Pignose G40V tube amp I have been using now. I like the tube cleans (not sure if I'd say it's better or just different) but the warm distortion through pedals are much better. That said I still use pedals for distortion through the Pignose as it is a single channel amp. Another variable is I also use different pedals thast were bought after I stopped using the Polytone setup. I am using the Fulltone OCD v. 1.4 and a BB Preamp pedal which complements the Pignose very nice. I think those 2 pedals would make the Polytone setup more versatile than the distortion boxes I was using. I will have to try it with them sometime in the near future.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: solid state in jazz

Kind of an interesting thread.

I do think that most rock players are more concerned with how they look striking a pose in front of their gear than most jazz players are.

And it's interesting that so many rock guys who play with a heavily overdriven tone and have to have fabulous tube amps to get that distortiom actually get their distortion from the transistors in distortion pedal.

When I think of jazz guitar though I don't think of rock/jazz fusion. I think of Jim Hall, Kenny Burrell, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass and others. Those guys play clean and a Polytone type amp works great for that kind of tone.

It's my tone though. I've never been able to get my tone from anything other than a tube amp - even though I don't play with a lot of distortion.

It's the touch. I like the way a note compresses a little when I dig in with my pick and the way I can shape the tone with my hands and squeeze a note out like toothpaste from a tube when I play through my tube amps.

Lew

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: solid state in jazz

Kind of an interesting thread.

I do think that most rock players are more concerned with how they look striking a pose in front of their gear than most jazz players are.

And it's interesting that so many rock guys who play with a heavily overdriven tone and have to have fabulous tube amps to get that distortiom actually get their distortion from the transistors in distortion pedal.

Lew

I honestly think that jazz guys are as, if not more interested in image than rock guys are. I've sat in at jazz gigs, country gigs, funk and rock gigs.

I've gotten comment on my gear and tone at all of them (some positive, some negative), but the most resistance I've gotten has been from jazz cats.

I remember once taking a pretty simple rig to a jazz gig: my '77 strat with a DG-20 set up, a Chandler tube pre-amp and a SWR California Blonde. I use the pre-amp to get a warmer clean that I can push to slight break up.

When I arrived, one of the other guitarists basically grilled me for not using an archtop of some sort.

I didn't pay much attention, and played the gig. The other musicians liked the tone, but the other guitarist in the band had nothing but criticism about my rig (not my tone or chops though).

I guess it didn't fit his idea of what the band should look like.

I've used tele's for rock gigs, my Sheraton for country and funk, and my Carvin for blues and have never had a negative reaction from other players.

Go figure.

 

[TimmyPage]

Re: solid state in jazz

I guess it didn't fit his idea of what the band should look like.

I often use my strat and never get a negative reaction, then again one of Canada's top jazz guitarists uses a strat style guitar. An Ibanez which used to have EMGs no less (recently he switched to all cool rails.)

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=53U_7W-Eg94 (Playing with Oscar Peterson, no less.)

I'm so excited.. I have private lessons with this guy this year.

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: solid state in jazz

I'm sure it was an isolated incident, but I'm using it to illustrate a point.

Rock guys use Marshalls because their heroes used them. Country guys swear by Blackfaces because everyone from Bakersfield and Nashville used them. Jazz cats worship at the altar of the ES and Polytone because that's what the old bebop guys had.

It's just people copping their hero's mojo.

 

[ES350]

Re: solid state in jazz

It gets the tone without a lot of fussing around---most hard bop/50's/60's jazz stuff is a dark tone with a lot of clarity. You need headroom to play the altered chords or they turn into a mess. An Evans or a Polytone get it...so does a Twin or a Pro Reverb (Pizzarelli) or a tweed Bassman (Joe Puma). Remember, most of this music is not at the volume levels you encounter in rock/blues settings. I used to gig with an Ampeg GU12 with no problems.

 

[NickCormier]

Re: solid state in jazz

Keep in mind most jazz guys also are the only guitarist in the band, they dont have to worry about the other guitarist turning his tube amp louder and louder every second and not cutting thru the mix because of it.. SS amps can cut thru with piano/sax/bass, but has a hard time with another tube amp in the room.

 

[ES350]

Re: solid state in jazz

Tube amps can also have a peculiar bump in the response that doesn't really sound all that good for the archtop/hard bop thing...fixed bias 6L6's have it; a clanky midrange that archtops already put out in spades. A flatter response ala SS or cathode biased tube amps ala Ampegs sound a lot more legit and it's easier to get a good tone fast without a lot of hoopla...Mark Norwine used to build a lot of BF Vibrolux style amps; when he started playing more jazz, he went right for an Ampeg Gemini.

 

[Vetteboy]

Re: solid state in jazz

I played guitar in my college jazz ensemble for 3 years with the Univox SS combo on the left in this pic...

The volume knob just lives on 10. It's got the most tube-like response of any SS amp I've ever played as far as being able to clean up the tone with the guitar knob, and also the way the speaker reacts. Also has a gross spring reverb and a pretty nice tremolo. For college gigs it was simple, lightweight, and reliable...and I still use it for nearly any clean recordings I do. I'd probably cry a little bit if it crapped out.

The best part is that I found it in the trunk of a junk car at my buddy's salvage yard.