Source for double thick A8 mags?

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

If you want to experiment you can simply attach the second magnet to the baseplate so that it attracts. After you test this out you can do the same thing by taping it down so that it stays in position when it repels the other magnet. There are also plenty of other threads on this forum talking about the same subject.

If you attach the magnet such that it attracts, then you're doing it wrong, and that's the problem.

I don't need to experiment. What I'm telling you about magnets is well established fact. What is not apparent to people is that magnets are always fighting themselves internally. If you drop a magnet and it breaks, that pressure is released and it sort of "explodes" and then turns into a clump of magnet shards. The degree to which their own magnetism is reduced by this "self fighting" is referred to as their coercive force. AlNiCo actually has a low coercivity, and that's what makes it weaker than other magnet types, such as ceramic or neodymium. If it weren't for the "self fighting" aspect of AlNiCo, it would actually be stronger than ceramic.

When you properly stack two bar magnets for this purpose, such that the poles are in parallel, and they're attempting to repel eachother, what you end up with is no different than if the magnet were solid. All you're lacking is a mechanical connection that prevents them from separating, which can be compensated for with clamping or adhesive.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

We can supply 2 of HB AL8 bonded together and remagnetised to perform as 1 solid magnet. See below link.

If enough people demand as 1 solid piece we will start producing and putting into stock.

http://www.cermagmagnets.co.uk/alnico-bars-for-hb-double-width---62mm-x-65mm-x-125mm-39-p.asp

Please have a look around the shop. any comments welcome

Thanks for suggesting that, cermag! Great idea; I would never have thought of that but it makes perfect sense.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

Doesn't seem like there would be enough difference between an A8 and a double thick A8 to make it worth all of the trouble to buy them.

My interest is in replacing a double thick ceramic with a double thick A8, instead of changing the spacers in order to use a regular A8. Have been considering this as a way of making an SH-7 a little less bright.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

If you attach the magnet such that it attracts, then you're doing it wrong, and that's the problem.

I don't need to experiment. What I'm telling you about magnets is well established fact. What is not apparent to people is that magnets are always fighting themselves internally. If you drop a magnet and it breaks, that pressure is released and it sort of "explodes" and then turns into a clump of magnet shards. The degree to which their own magnetism is reduced by this "self fighting" is referred to as their coercive force. AlNiCo actually has a low coercivity, and that's what makes it weaker than other magnet types, such as ceramic or neodymium. If it weren't for the "self fighting" aspect of AlNiCo, it would actually be stronger than ceramic.

When you properly stack two bar magnets for this purpose, such that the poles are in parallel, and they're attempting to repel eachother, what you end up with is no different than if the magnet were solid. All you're lacking is a mechanical connection that prevents them from separating, which can be compensated for with clamping or adhesive.

Please try it yourself. You'll find the same results I have. This is becoming another one of our debates where you spout fancy words and I spout personal experience.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

Please try it yourself. You'll find the same results I have. This is becoming another one of our debates where you spout fancy words and I spout personal experience.

I didn't notice this before I posted, but cermag , who is apparently a rep for Cermag Ltd., offered to do exactly what I was saying, sell two regular sized A8's adhered together. I'd think you can trust them, if not me.

I wasn't there to experience your experience. Maybe you overlooked something. This is why experience alone is not always useful, and if you intend for an experience to be referred back upon later, it's a good idea to document it really well so if you made any sort of mistake, the documentation might serve as a clue.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

I didn't notice this before I posted, but cermag , who is apparently a rep for Cermag Ltd., offered to do exactly what I was saying, sell two regular sized A8's adhered together. I'd think you can trust them, if not me.

If it were as simple as slapping some glue onto two magnets don't you think people would have been doing that already? If you glue two magnets together in the way that their North and South poles would align, as you would need to do for a pickup, they would be constantly degaussing each other. The only way to avoid this would be do either have one double thick A8, or bond together two uncharged A8 and then charge them afterward.

And if I put to paper every last guitar hardware related experience I had, I would have no time to either practice, mod guitars, or talk about it online and it would suck the fun out of all three.

You asked if stacking magnets could be done, I assume as a DIY thing, I said no. And now you spent 6 paragraphs telling me why I'm wrong.

???

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

If it were as simple as slapping some glue onto two magnets don't you think people would have been doing that already? If you glue two magnets together in the way that their North and South poles would align, as you would need to do for a pickup, they would be constantly degaussing each other.

That's just an assumption people make. Some people believe that AlNiCo always needs a keeper beside it order to "keep" it stable, but other people think it's unnecessary. Besides, the opposing flux fields are not as strong side by side, compared to having the, end on end. With a P-90, you have to poles facing each other with steel screws in between. If this was really an issue, you'd have P-90s self demagnetizing left and right.

Again, this is exactly what cermag was offerring to do.

The only way to avoid this would be do either have one double thick A8, or bond together two uncharged A8 and then charge them afterward.???

One thing cermag also offered to do is remagnetize the A8 after bonding them, which might help in terms of self demagnetization, or it might make the joined magnets very slightly stronger, though I doubt it's strictly necessary. Any major differences between combining AlNiCo versus having a solid chunk would have to be established at the time of casting the magnet, and if cermag is content to simply remagnetize them, then I'm sure it's fine.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

That's just an assumption people make. Some people believe that AlNiCo always needs a keeper beside it order to "keep" it stable, but other people think it's unnecessary. Besides, the opposing flux fields are not as strong side by side, compared to having the, end on end. With a P-90, you have to poles facing each other with steel screws in between. If this was really an issue, you'd have P-90s self demagnetizing left and right.

P90s do degauss with time at a faster rate than humbuckers. This is fine because they are rather far apart and do not make any sort of contact. One thing you notice rather quickly about magnets is that as they get closer the force repelling them gets stronger. Two magnets on top of each other has oodles more coercive force than two magnets with some screws inbetween them.

If this is what happens when I answer your questions, I'll save everyone some grief and just not answer them. In the meantime, I have a guitar that needs playing.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

Two magnets on top of each other has oodles more coercive force than two magnets with some screws inbetween them.

From the way you're using the term it's evident that you don't know what coercive force refers to. The coercive force is set in stone when the magnet is made. It doesn't change thereafter. When you put two magnets side by side, so that both poles are north up or south up, they do repel, but it's not as strong as when they're facing end to end, because they're merely in the return path of the their neighbor, where the flux density is a lot lower than at the face of the magnet, where all the flux is concentrated. This is also the reason why the core material of a coil is much more significant than the material outside if of it, because this is where the flux is most densely concentrated. And the thing is, that even a solid magnet is in the return path of it's own many magnetic domains. Magnets are always attempting to demagnetize themselves, and the extent to which the succeed is their coercive force. When you put two magnets together, nothing happens that wasn't already happening.

If this is what happens when I answer your questions

This is nothing personal, I don't know who you are, I just see a statement that needs correcting and so I correct it.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

My interest is in replacing a double thick ceramic with a double thick A8, instead of changing the spacers in order to use a regular A8. Have been considering this as a way of making an SH-7 a little less bright.

I've always wanted to try a regular A8 with ceramic spacers.

 

[Discharged]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

bond together two uncharged A8 and then charge them afterward

Doing so would mitigate it a tiny little bit, but the duel of the repeling forces of each mag with the other remains the same.

The real world effect of using bonded, stacked magnets is subtetly reducing pick attack and articulation, plus some degree of comb filtering effect.

I, in good conscience, would not advice to use such contraption as a permanent solution.

However, if what's wanted is simply to hit even harder the first gain stage of an amp at max distortion, then all the discribed effect won't matter.

/Peter

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

This is nothing personal, I don't know who you are, I just see a statement that needs correcting and so I correct it.

Then why do you ask if you already know the answer?

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

Doing so would mitigate it a tiny little bit, but the duel of the repeling forces of each mag with the other remains the same.

The real world effect of using bonded, stacked magnets is subtetly reducing pick attack and articulation, plus some degree of comb filtering effect.

I, in good conscience, would not advice to use such contraption as a permanent solution.

However, if what's wanted is simply to hit even harder the first gain stage of an amp at max distortion, then all the discribed effect won't matter.

/Peter

In the past all I've heard was not to do it because it degausses the magnets, and from the descriptions I've read about it, it sounds nothing a double thick magnet because the bottom one uses more of its energy fighting the other one than sensing the string.

 

[Discharged]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

I've read about it, it sounds nothing a double thick magnet because the bottom one uses more of its energy fighting the other one than sensing the string.

What you read is just *not* accurate by any means.

Would you please cite your source?

/Peter

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

What you read is just *not* accurate by any means.

Would you please cite your source?

/Peter

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?267492-Stacking-magnets

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?227794-2-Alnico-Magnets-in-Duncan-Distortion

 

[Discharged]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

Christopher, in those posts you mentioned, I couldn't find any reference that could be interpreted as your statement.

However, there's a quite interested read in the Wiki "magnetic field" link posted by LtKojak.

What happened to him anyway? I haven't seen any contributions for quite a while now. If he left the group is a shame. He was quite knowledgeable, although he was quite "colorful" in the way he sometimes delivered.

/Peter

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

Then why do you ask if you already know the answer?

I didn't ask any questions, but nevertheless, that's neither here nor there.

In the past all I've heard was not to do it because it degausses the magnets, and from the descriptions I've read about it, it sounds nothing a double thick magnet because the bottom one uses more of its energy fighting the other one than sensing the string.

It's not especially easy for AlNiCo to degauss itself, because, although the coercive force is low, which makes it easy to "charge up", the residual flux of AlNiCo is also very low, so it's very nearly not strong enough to degauss itself. In order for that to happen, aside from being subjected to a stronger external magnetic field, it would have to experience physical shock or dramatic heat change in order cause the microscopic magnetic domains to fall out of alignment.

If you stack two AlNiCo bars in parallel such that they try to repel, the degree to which they try top degauss one another will be absolutely no different than the degree to which a double thick AlNiCo bar tries to degauss itself. Does that make sense?

As for the magnet sensing the strings, that's not at all how it works. What happens is the magnetized slugs and the screws endow the guitar string with a magnetic field. The magnetic field of the string gets stronger and weaker as the string move towards and away from the slugs and screws. That changing magnetic field moves through the coils of the pickup, at which point magnetic inductance causes an output voltage to be created. The bar magnets do nothing more than supply a magnetic field to the slugs and screws, so that they can magnetize the strings in turn.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

To recap, you started with this:

Why not stack two regular sized A8s?

I said that in my past experience it doesn't work because the magnets start to fight each other. A stronger magnet in the magnetic field of a weaker magnet will change the polarity of the weaker magnet over time, I've done this numerous time to fix pickup phasing issues without removing the pickup from the guitar.

You replied by spitting 6 whole Wikipedia pages about how I was wrong, and then end with this:

I didn't ask any questions, but nevertheless, that's neither here nor there.

This was two tangents removed from the original discussion mind you, and it hasn't added anything to the discussion.

By the way, Axesrus sells double thick A8s, and even Alnico spacers. It's where I get all of my magnets from. They carry double thick varieties of most magnets. You may say it's over priced, but it's cheaper than buying two A8s and gluing them together, minus the risk of screwing something up.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

I said that in my past experience it doesn't work because the magnets start to fight each other.

All magnets fight themselves, that's the nature of magnets.

A stronger magnet in the magnetic field of a weaker magnet will change the polarity of the weaker magnet over time,

That's not true of all magnets, even AlNiCo magnets. Again, the extent to which this happens is quantified as the "coercivity", and then beyond that the shape of the magnet will also play a role in how liable it is to lose remanent flux over time. Again, when you stack two magnets so that they are parallel with their poles aligned, the aggregate of the two is not different than if you only have the one larger magnet. The only difference is that the two magnets need to be mechanically held together, whereas a solid magnet is holding itself together.

 

[gregory]

Re: Source for double thick A8 mags?

As for the magnet sensing the strings, that's not at all how it works.

I couldn't help but laugh when I read that.

I just see a statement that needs correcting and so I correct it.

Keep up the good work!