Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

IMENATOR

Well-known member
So I plan to borrow a Boss GE-7 graphic eq pedal, and I was thinking about this and wonder if this is just pure mad science or something that could actually be done: If I compare the frequency response chart of my current Celestion 70/80 (described as neutral by many) to the chart of the Celestion V30 (described as mid spike by many) I may find differences at the frequencies available at the GE-7 and then adjust it to try to compensate them and try to make the 7080 cut thru the mix a bit more like the V30 may. Before you start ranting I know an EQ pedal won't turn speaker A into speaker B but I just want to see how much it can help without spending lots of money and time buy who knows how many speakers.

My problem is, well, I cannot really tell much of a difference between the freq response charts of the 7080 and the V30, or even the Creamback 75. Is there anyone in this forum that could describe the differences in terms of those freq charts?
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

Just a quick look. The V30 would have the least bass (down 10dB at 80 hz which is pretty much the exact frequency of low E) but the shelf from 2-4khz would make it cut through a mix. From there it falls of very smoothly not giving much if anything past 5khz. The 75 Cream has a tiny bit more low end. That 6dB dip around 1.5khz would make it less nasally than the V30 (think less telephone voice) but with a slightly higher spike around 2.5khz followed by a bit more extended high end out to about 6khz it should still cut a lot like the V30 in the high end. The 7080 would seem the least efficient of the group...but not by much. Looks to have the most low end response of the group with a less pronounced 1-4khz mid spike with a quicker high end roll off. I imagine it wouldn't sound as aggressive in the mid to high range as the first two.

But keeping in mind the chart of what ever you are driving now mess with the EQ settings on the pedal that correspond to its peaks and dips and you could go a long way towards figuring out what kind of speaker would work better for you. More 2-4k or less? Do you like the glassiness of a speaker that might extend more out to 7 or 8 K? Need more ooumph in the 75-120hz range? etc..
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

Thanks man, I think that helps a lot. I guess what would be great would be to be able to have one graph on top of the other, as in the old days projectors used in class. Also, I need to read more about this topic anyway.
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

There is a lot more to the sound of a speaker than its eq graph.
A minute spent playing through one will tell you more than you can glean from a year of looking at a graph.
The kinds of speakers you are talking about a popular items to pick up or sell off second hand so you should be able to experiment with very little investment apart fromn the 10 minutes or so that it takes to change a speaker.
A ge7 in front of the amp or in the fx loop can change your sound dramatically and give you a lot of tone shaping, so that is a worthwhile experiment, but it wont sound of feel anything like a speaker swap.
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

There is a lot more to the sound of a speaker than its eq graph.
A minute spent playing through one will tell you more than you can glean from a year of looking at a graph.
The kinds of speakers you are talking about a popular items to pick up or sell off second hand so you should be able to experiment with very little investment apart fromn the 10 minutes or so that it takes to change a speaker.
A ge7 in front of the amp or in the fx loop can change your sound dramatically and give you a lot of tone shaping, so that is a worthwhile experiment, but it wont sound of feel anything like a speaker swap.

Here in México sencond hand quality gear is still expensive dude. And I have not been able to find a single cab in a store or uses with creambacks stock to test


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Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

IMO just use your ears. They'll take you as close as you can get to "mimicking" a different speaker/cab.
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

If you can record them, you could use something like voxengo's curve EQ to match them and/or see how they differ (even in free mode you can utilize that feature to a degree)

Or like it was said above, just use your ears. Chances are you need to pull the bass down a hair and bump the mids up a tad. Not sure about the highs but you could do that part by ear to taste.
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

I think this would only be possible with a parametric EQ. Or even better, a box that allows you to record IRs (impulse responses) from the speakers and play them through a full range system. The IRs are effectively EQs that mimic the curve of any speaker.
 
Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

If you can record them, you could use something like voxengo's curve EQ to match them and/or see how they differ (even in free mode you can utilize that feature to a degree)

Or like it was said above, just use your ears. Chances are you need to pull the bass down a hair and bump the mids up a tad. Not sure about the highs but you could do that part by ear to taste.

That is not the problema. The idea is to translate tweaks in a ge7 into some kind of hint to choose a replacement speaker.

Edit: I think I missed your first paragraph, I think this and Mincer comment aré something I need to think about

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Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

As mincer said a parametric EQ would be better...especially a fully parametric EQ on that allows adjustment of the "Q" or width of the curve. The higher the number the fewer the frequencies on either side of the center frequency to get affected. EX..a really high Q would affect only a certain note. A really low Q would center on a certain note but have considerable effect 1/2 to a full octave to either side.
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

That is not the problema. The idea is to translate tweaks in a ge7 into some kind of hint to choose a replacement speaker.

Edit: I think I missed your first paragraph, I think this and Mincer comment aré something I need to think about

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oh I see - yikes, that would be tough.
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

In my experience, I've never had much success of changing the basic character of a transducer by using a graphic or parametric EQ to make it sound like another transducer.

If you could, then you could get an eq and get your JB pickup to sound like a Seth or a Custom or an Invader. No, there's something intrinsic and genetic about the tone in that JB...and all pickups have their own DNA. Likewise for speakers. I don't think you can make a Celestion Greenback sound like a JBL D-120, or an EVM sound like a Tone Tubby. Microphones too. Love my Shure Beta 58, but no amount of processing is going to make it sound like a Neumann U-87.

Transducers color sound with their own DNA. You can put all the makeup in the world on Miss Piggy...she still won't look like JLo. And God knows, I could spend another $30,000 on aftermarket parts for my Chrysler Town and Country mini-van...but it will never accelerate, handle and brake like a Porsche 911 Turbo Carrera. (I wish!)

Bill
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

In my experience, I've never had much success of changing the basic character of a transducer by using a graphic or parametric EQ to make it sound like another transducer.

If you could, then you could get an eq and get your JB pickup to sound like a Seth or a Custom or an Invader. No, there's something intrinsic and genetic about the tone in that JB...and all pickups have their own DNA. Likewise for speakers. I don't think you can make a Celestion Greenback sound like a JBL D-120, or an EVM sound like a Tone Tubby. Microphones too. Love my Shure Beta 58, but no amount of processing is going to make it sound like a Neumann U-87.

Transducers color sound with their own DNA. You can put all the makeup in the world on Miss Piggy...she still won't look like JLo. And God knows, I could spend another $30,000 on aftermarket parts for my Chrysler Town and Country mini-van...but it will never accelerate, handle and brake like a Porsche 911 Turbo Carrera. (I wish!)

Bill

The idea was not to make a speker A sound like speaker B, that is what I said in the first placed. The idea is to try to figure out how to translate "detailed eq tweaks" into speaker tweaks considering an EQ pedal allows you to know around which frequencies you are compensating and the speaker frequency allows you to know how much or less a speaker brings at certain frequencies.

And why is asking for pickups with so ambiguous terms like "bite" or "growl" is universally accepted to choose how to upgrade your pickups while using valid approximated numbers like freq response chart is disregarded so easily when trying to figure out how to upgrade your speaker? Just because is more complex than a single number like impedance, efficiency or wattage does not mean that info is not useful, maybe I should have posted the same question on a different place. I was trying to learn about something that is not obvious, not to be told "it can't be done".
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

I think this would only be possible with a parametric EQ. Or even better, a box that allows you to record IRs (impulse responses) from the speakers and play them through a full range system. The IRs are effectively EQs that mimic the curve of any speaker.

I see what you mean, I also need a 7080 IR as the base line for comparisons :)
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

Rivera has done exactly what you're asking for (see link below, lower right of page). Their RockCrusher Recording has an active 11-band EQ with +/-18db after the amplifier to emulate different speakers. You hitting it with an EQ pedal before the amp might change the results, but at least you can see them in comparison to each other. Rivera noted that the EQ charts Celestion provided were much different than its real-world application.

http://www.rivera.com/product/attenuators-cab-sims/rockcrusher-recording/
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

The problem I have with manufacturer-supplied charts is the lack of details on how that chart was constructed, i.e. whether it was completely theoretical or if it was measured in reality.

If it was measured in reality, what are the specs of the cabinet it was mounted in?
What amp with what settings, and what variances will that model of amp itself have?
What guitar?
What pickups?
Who played the guitar, a man or a machine?
If a machine struck the string that eventually came out of the speaker as sound, at what level of force was the string struck? Open or fretted? If fretted, what with, and with what frets on what fretboard? What value and brand of pots in the guitar?

On the other hand, if the signal was generated by an electronic tone generator, what model? And what is its tolerance? Had the unit been calibrated to ensure a 1kHz tone was not 1024 or 980Hz?

If it was purely theoretical based on the components and build spec, what's the allowable variance of those components and the build spec? Is the voice coil wound by hand or machine? Is the starting point of the coil winding identical on every speaker or will some speakers have more or less winds than others?

What about the magnet used for the sample speaker? Best-quality that doesn't get used in full production or "we picked one off the line at random"? What's the variance in gauss?

What about the dust cover and surround? What material variance is there?


These are the questions I encountered a few years back when I went on a similar journey: I was dead-set on getting a fully programmable EQ so I could model various amps based on their graph charts for direct recording purposes. After looking up various EQ charts, and multiple layerings of EQ tweaks with both parametric (with Q control) and full-range graphic to notch specific frequencies, and generating output graphs in Adobe Audition and comparing them to the printed graphs, these questions started coming up.

The fact that you can buy an AxeFX or a Kemper as well as several other up-and-coming "true-to-life" modelers is astounding, and once you start delving into the process like I did, and run across those same questions, you begin to understand why those units are so expensive.

As for trying to approximate a given speaker, you have to know not only the target speaker's specs, but the current specs of your amp and cabinet and how they interact with your guitars and pickups. What frequencies are the amp and current speaker and cabinet accentuating, or cancelling out, and to what degree? Is that hump at a given frequency a harmonic aberration caused by the speaker? The cabinet? The amp? The pickup? The guitar? Your personal tone? The pots? The cables? The pedals? The room? The listening angle?

All of these are factors in the sound you perceive coming from the amp. I don't think a GE-7 is going to be wide enough to do that. You're going to need a 20+ band graphic, because a parametric EQ will usually only be 3 bands, with High and Low Shelving on 5-band models. Even with a Q knob, it's still only going to let you zero-in on 3 primary EQ frequencies, and the Q control is going to either squash or enhance frequencies on either side like a blanket. A graphic EQ will be more precise, assuming it is also voiced identically to the amp it's being run through, where the "Mid" control may or may not be on 1kHz. If you cut or boost the 1kHz with an external unit, and the amp and/or speaker favors the 975Hz notch, you'll have some degree of phasing.

I know you're not trying to make speaker A sound like speaker B, but you must realize you're only going to get so close this way, and that it may not be close enough to justify the expense.

Personally, I'd get the EQ pedal (or a rack with a fuller range) and use it for tone-sculpting rather than merely tone-tweaking.
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

/\

Interesting post. Another thing that fascinates me is how often I will read a review of high-end audiophile gear and the reviewer writes something like, "This speaker doesn't sound like what it's frequency response graph would indicate."

Hmmmm...

Bill
 
Re: Speaker frequency responce charts and graph eq pedals???

They don't use a guitar. They use a sine wave generator.
But yeah, there are a lot of variables involved in how a speaker sounds including but not limited to the cabinet, the room, the amp and a whole host of other things.
 
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