Speaker Wattage Help

FamousForSustain

FamousForSustain

New member
There's probably an FAQ somewhere that addresses this issue, but a half hour on Google didn't turn it up....

I just got an unloaded (no speakers) G-Flex 212 cab to go with my Peavey Ultra 60-Watt head. I'm trying to figure out what speakers to drop in but I've heard conflicting advice regarding wattage. Some say that the combined rating of the speakers should be at least double what the head puts out (in this case, two 60 watters would fit the bill). I've heard other people say that in order to get the cone to vibrate in a way that produces the best possible distortion (don't ask me, this is someone else talking) it is best to use the lowest wattage possible without going below what the speaker puts out. Thoughts?

Also, a couple of quick sub-questions to that; are there any negative effects that come from speakers that are of too high a wattage relative to the amp, assuming the impedence is correctly matched? I ask because there's a pair of 80-watt Webers I wouldn't mind throwing in if the wattage isn't an issue. Also, are higher watt speakers inherently louder than lower watt speakers or will they produce the same volume if it's the same amp being used (which I assume would be the case).

Any advice would be appreciated, as I just got done learning about pickups and guitar hardware, etc. and amps/speakers are a fairly new area of knowledge for me. Thanks.
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

This is a very complex subject. People talk out of their poop holes and do not have a clue. On this subject it seems everybody has an opinion and almost all are misinformed.

Having said that I will add that I am by no means an expert. If you listen to a lot of so-called experts they will just confuse you and themselves too. They will throw a lot of tech stuff to prove their point and they will have no clue on actually getting a good tone, but they sure know a lot of tech stuff.

Their are a few simple rules to follow that might help you out, I will address them once I have more information. But there are more questions that someone should ask you before they even attempt to recommend speakers for your rig.

So I will ask those questions before I recommend anything or even give any advice.

How loud are you going to play it?
Are you going to really crank the amp?
Do you use a lot of bass/lowend?
What type of music do you play?
What type of guitars are you going to use through it?
Do you use a lot of pedals, do you use a lot of distortion type pedals?
Are you going to gig with it?

Once we have established how you are going to use the amp then speaker recommendations can be made. A peevee 60 watt amp is nowhere near 60 watts. It's just not possible with a pair of 6L6GC's in there. Yes it might have peaks that are higher but it's probably really more like 40-50 watts if that.

One reason a lot of speakers are designed to handle a lot of power is because people abuse them. The company then has warranty issues and everybody will say the speakers suck. So they give up tone for the ability to handle power.

That's why it's important to know how they will be used. You want the best sound you can afford and you don't want to blow them up.

Case in point, the Celestion Blues are only rated at 15 watts. Yet so many people tried to push them, they had so many returned because they blew out.

If you are going to really push the speakers with a distorted loud sound you have to find a compromise between a good sound/tone and the ability for the speaker to handle the abuse.

So if you outline what you will be doing with the amp than I can recommend some speakers and why I recommended those particular one's.

If I just throw a lot of information at you all it will do is confuse you more. I'm really not one of those who likes to hear myself talk or come off like a know it all to try and impress people. I just like to help.........
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

To answer your questions,

-How loud are you going to play it? Loud enough to stand up my lead player's Dual Rec and ridiculous assortment of Boss pedals.

Are you going to really crank the amp? Not if it can be avoided; I usually keep the volume at noon, maybe up to 2 or 3'o clock in a gig situation. I can't say I'm not prone to diming it on occasion, though.

Do you use a lot of bass/lowend? Quite a lot. I'm primarily a rhythm player so a lot of what I play is grindy power chords and, though I don't play nu-metal, bone-crushing palm mutes. Strong lowend is essential to me.

What type of music do you play? Heavily metallic blues, often high-tempo, sometimes subdued.

What type of guitars are you going to use through it? DD-equipped Frankenstrat and a Peavey HP (doublecut mahogany solid body, ebony board, maple top with 2 'buckers)

Pedals? Currently I run my amp bare, in the future I'd like to add an EQ and perhaps resurrect my Crybaby, but apart from that I'm not too heavy on pedals.

Gigs? Yeah, small to medium. Just about every place I've been in that was bigger than a basement had me go into a PA.

Your advice is very much appreciated.
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

FamousForSustain said:
..... Loud enough to stand up my lead player's Dual Rec and ridiculous assortment of Boss pedals........

.....I can't say I'm not prone to diming it on occasion, though.....

.....Strong lowend is essential to me.......

.....Heavily metallic blues, often high-tempo, sometimes subdued.......

......DD-equipped Frankenstrat and a Peavey HP (doublecut mahogany solid body, ebony board, maple top with 2 'buckers).......



.......Just about every place I've been in that was bigger than a basement had me go into a PA......

.
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This sounds like job for Vintage 30's. They are 60 watts rated each. This will give 120 watts RMS rating, but just 50-60 watts RMS handling, will still handle your amp for the way you plan on using it.

Just to comment on a few other points. Speaker power handling ratings are rated at watts RMS, not the absolute max wattage they can handle, but this depends to some extent on what wave forms you push through them. You will generaly not need speakers that total twice the RMS rating of the amp, even with severe abuse.

Some guys like speaker breakup and some don't. Speaker breakup may be desired for blues type playing, but not usually for the kind of styles you listed.
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

Lake Placid Blues said:
This sounds like job for Vintage 30's
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To be honest, I've never been a huge fan of the Celestions as they're a little heavy on the "British" vibe with the mids, at least in the Crate stack I've heard them in. I kept thinking, "You know, if I wanted to sound like the Strokes, this'd be a pretty good way to do it cheap." and it definitely wasn't from the head. Not bad by any means, in fact those speakers were probably the best thing about that rig, but not really my particular flavor.

In regards to the wattage question, in this situation I'd do well to buy speakers which would together make for an RMS handling rating that is the (rough) equivalent of the amp's wattage?
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

If you were going Celestion I would say stay away from Vintage 30's. To me they always seemed like a good speaker to make a small amp louder and that's about it. They did have some higher powered models but I do not know what they offer now. And they are British flavored which is mid heavy.

As for wattage.......a lot!!!!!.....for rhythm work you need clean until you want dirt. A higher wattage speaker will clean up better when the guitar volume control is turned down. It will then make the amp work harder to drive them so you will get that raw or should I say roar sound when you do turn the guitar up.

Just because it's so-called 60 watts doesn't mean a thing. If you were playing some blues/rock I would say a pair of greenbacks or some type of Jensen C12N but you're not. that's why I asked for specifics.

You need a tight, high powered speaker that will hold together until you want them to break. Like I said, that will make the amp work harder and that's when you get "THAT" sound I think you are looking for.

SPL is the name of the game along with the overall power handling. SPL is a measure of the speakers efficiency, they call it sensitivity. I think for every 3db increase in efficiency the sound will be twice as loud. Wattage wise that means something like 5 times the wattage. But again that is tech stuff and doesn't equate to the real world no matter what they say. As i said before i am not an expert, but I know enough to be dangerous...;-)

So I would look into a high wattage, higher SPL speaker but not Hi-Fi sounding. Hi-Fi means trying to reproduce the sound without any coloration.

Since you don't want the British mid honk, steer away from anything that has that in it's description.

These are 2 great places to look for speakers and has a lot of info and specs:

http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

This is Webervst's site, one for his speakers and one for the Eminence he sells.

https://weberspeakerscom.secure.powweb.com/weber/

https://weberspeakerscom.secure.powweb.com/emi/emi12.htm

The one's that caught my eye's were from Eminence. The "Red, White and Blues", the "Swamp Thing" and the "Texas Heat" are the one's I was looking at.

I think a pair of the "Red, White and Blues" might be the best choice. It's not overkill, they say they have a lot of bottom and they have a 102db sensitivity.

That's sounds like a tight, loud, clean speaker that really handles the bottom and will breakup when pushed. The price is also very good on these speakers for what you get.

I hope this helps and I would do a little more research before you decide. But they do sound good to me on paper. The other one's sound like a little overkill to me for your needs.
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

The GT-75's tend to get a bad rap, and for a long time I thought I wanted something smoother. I had 2 V30's in my JCM 800 2x12. I ultimately came to realize, that for me, they were TOO smooth, not enough bite in the top end, and too smooth in the bass. A well broken in GT-75 sounds great to my ears for rock and blues.

I also like the G12-H30's for some low end thump. Ultimately I'd like to swap out two of the 75's in my Marshall 4x12 for some H30's. Should be the best of both worlds for me.

The good news is that there are plenty of great speakers around, and buying used is a great way to try some different ones out, as long as you trust the source. My advice is to try several and give them some time. Rarely do we find our ideal equipment on the first try.

Give a bunch of different ones a go, and see what you think.
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

To me the celestion speakers made for companies like Marshall after the 70's are junk. They are made for warranty issues and not for tone. They are made not to blow out. There is a balance between power handling and tonal quality. The 65 and 75 models are made for guys who crank their amps with heavy distortion from pedals not for tone. The Greenback type speakers and the Blues are made for tone not on purpose but by the design limitations of the 50's and 60's. It is my opinion that finding something in-between is best. Something with some tone but can handle a little power.......I don't think those speakers can do that.
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

BigDaddy said:
As for wattage.......a lot!!!!!.....for rhythm work you need clean until you want dirt. A higher wattage speaker will clean up better when the guitar volume control is turned down. It will then make the amp work harder to drive them so you will get that raw or should I say roar sound when you do turn the guitar up.

The one's that caught my eye's were from Eminence. The "Red, White and Blues", the "Swamp Thing" and the "Texas Heat" are the one's I was looking at.

I think a pair of the "Red, White and Blues" might be the best choice. It's not overkill, they say they have a lot of bottom and they have a 102db sensitivity.
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You know, I was looking at some of the Eminence Patriots and they do sound pretty cool but I thought that the 120 watts of the Red White and Blues would be too much and that my amp would never be able to push them. What I'm hearing is that the higher watt (triple digit) speakers are good for straight up cleans and straight up gain, whereas the lower watters are more geared towards light overdrive/sweet breakup/brown sound type gain?

BigDaddy said:
So I would look into a high wattage, higher SPL speaker but not Hi-Fi sounding. Hi-Fi means trying to reproduce the sound without any coloration.
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You think? I've always imagined that a tonally transparent speaker would be ideal for making the tone purely a product of the guitar and amp and would help out with clarity (In fact, despite the "hint of british flavor" associated with them, I've been checking out the Jensen MOD 12's for that reason). Is it because these types of speakers don't do well under heavy gain that you wouldn't recommend them?

Jeff_H said:
Rarely do we find our ideal equipment on the first try.
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Seriously. I really wonder how anybody was able to get good sounds out of aftermarket gear before the advent of online window-shopping and advice from forum gurus. I've had pretty good luck so far just because I've been able to research everything before buying it.

In any case, all of this advice is greatly appreciated.
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

The 120 watt rating is really bogus. They probably mean 120 clean watts, you put 120 watts of clipped, distorted sound and puff!!!!!!!!!!!

The thing that blows out speakers is over heating the voice coil. A square wave will do that faster than a regular clean sine wave.

That's why a lot of people blow out the horns in PA speakers. They under power the speakers and introduce distortion.

I had my own sound system company and would run a small speaker system rated at 250 watts per speaker cab with 400 watts of clean Crown power amps. No problems, I never blew out a speaker and it was clear as a bell.

So don't pay much attention to ratings from the company, unless you understand how they make their measurements. They all do things from a tech stand point and not the real world. Like PV saying your amp is 60 watts, yeah maybe on paper but I'm sure a 50 watt Plexi Marshall will destroy it with the same power tubes. It all about the Iron......transformers and design. Marshall iron is way bigger and robust.

The Jensen RI's aren't bad and have a really nice rock and roll sound, I don't know if they will put out the lows that the eminence will. The emi's have a 1.75 VC to the Jensen 1.5" VC.......makes a difference. Also the weight of the magnet, the spl, the Xmax and on and on.........you have to know what you are looking at.

I only understand some things, I would be lying if I said I understood it all.

But I know enough to get an idea of what's going on.

The Jensen MOD speakers are really a lower quality then their reissue's are far as I can tell. They are also designed to be more British sounding from what I understood when they first came out.
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

Alright, I'm starting to lean a bit towards the Emi's, but from what I read the Texas Heats and RWB's aren't recommended for heavy stuff, more like classic rock and such. The Black Powder and Blue Tick Hound are the ones that people seem to point to for a progressive, scooped sound (again, I'm not a nu-metaller but I do prefer the kind of tones one might associate with that type of music). They clock in at 75 watts, which is less than what I've been advised to go wit here, but with my amp it doesn't seem like I'd have to worry about blowing them. Tried to find a 100W+ equivalent to these but couldn't. Thoughts?
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

Yeah I like the Black Powder better, it has a bigger magnet. They have 1.5" voice coils and a magnet that is close to the Jensen reissue C12N. It says it has a little more sensitivity but I think they are basically the same speaker giving the edge to the Emi on the spec sheet, but it looks like the Jensen might handle the lows better. It has twice the Xmax the emi's have, that means it can handle bass better. Checkout some bass speakers and the one's that go really deep into the 30hz range usually have extended Xmax's.

The blue tick hound seems like a C12N lite or something. They seem to surround the C12N, one a little more and one a little less in the specs. But I feel and I say feel that they are coping the Jensen C12N. Eminence has always copied Jensen designs through the years. They have always been a poor man's Jensen, Celestion or JBL or EV and copy a lot of those companies designs trying to make a less expensive version.

I felt the higher models would be a setup from the C12N. I have used the C12N reissues and they are good sounding speakers, a pair can handle your head no problem. They have a distinct American rock and roll sound. The old Jensen, which I use now exclusively do not. They were a poor attempt at Hi-Fi speakers but they just seem to work for that certain sound with a tube amp. One big difference is the voice coil, old Jensen's have paper and the new one's have a Kapton. Something called nomex is used to get as close to paper as possible these days when doing recones. The kapton voice coils require bigger magnets to get them to produce the same amount of sound as a paper VC. So that's one reason the reissues do not sound anything like an original. They have the kapton VC and a bigger magnet than the originals. The advantage is a more rock and roll sound and better power handling capabilities, less Hi-Fi sounding. That's something more modern players like yourself want.

I think I would be more inclined to pick the C12N reissue over the Eminence you mentioned.

The confusing thing is that the Cannabis Rex has a bigger voice coil and a heavier magnet and a higher SPL(sensitivity) yet it says it handles 50 watts. Does the Cannabis mean they are trying to emulate a hemp coned speaker?

I just find Eminence's specs dubious and inflated on some accounts. And confusing to say the least. I am really trying to help you yet I feel like I am maybe confusing you, I know I'm a little confused with the Eminence speakers.

I think that's one reason I always recommend the next up model when dealing with eminence. I have used their speakers many times and have always been a little disappointed in their performance. I have used them in guitar amps, bass amps and subs for my big sound system. I couldn't wait to replace them, especially in my 18" subs. Some people found them to be OK but I am much more picky about my sound. And of course everybody has their opinions based on what they hear.

I even checked out some celestions from their site for you and my feelings are............either they have cheap junk speakers or the one's that are really good are very expensive.

All in all you might just be happy with a pair of used C12N reissues gotten fairly cheaply on Ebay. Or a used pair of older broke in Celestion 65's or 75's. Those speakers were the sound of the 80's to a large extent. I do not like them at all, you might. Maybe you should ask around and see if you can try some friends cabs to get a better idea.

Also the design and material of the cabinet has a lot to do with the sound. The same pair of speakers can sound different in a different cabinet. Nothing drastic but I have experienced some weird things, like a certain cabinet bringing out annoying spikes in some frequencies that another cabinet did not, it can get really weird.

Anyway, I wish you luck and I would be glad to answer any questions you have, if I can,
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

The C series speakers do seem pretty cool. I figure the C12K at 100W would probably the way to go if I went Jensen. At this point it's pretty much down to that and the black powder, although every time I read something about the Jensen C's it says they're geared towards Fender Twin type amps.

Based on what I've read, the Cannabis rex actually uses a hemp cone or one that is partially hemp. Struck me as kinda gimmicky and never really piqued my interest.

It would be cool if I had a lot of friends with after-market loaded cabs that I could test drive with my head, but as it is even with my limited knowledge of guitar tech stuff I'm considered the "gear guru" amongst my little circle of band geek friends. One guy I actually had to show the difference between a single coil and a humbucker because he didn't know and had never heard those terms used. And this was a lead guitarist. So, suffice it to say, my buddies aren't much help in the tech department.

And don't worry about confusing me, you've been nothing but help and filled in a lot of gaps I had knowledge-wise when it comes to speakers. Some topics just can't be dealt with in a simple way. Tone's definitely high on that list.
 
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Re: Speaker Wattage Help

I have read a few things here and there and it seems people are no too happy with some of those emi speakers, the Black powder is one of them. On the other hand some people love some of those speakers.

The C12K is like a C12N on a some steroids but has some of the highs attenuated. It's a little dark sounding because of that. I had a cab with one in it a few years ago. I much preferred the C12N and I think a pair of them will do you good. I see them on ebay all the time for a reasonable price.
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

BigDaddy said:
To me the celestion speakers made for companies like Marshall after the 70's are junk. They are made for warranty issues and not for tone. They are made not to blow out. There is a balance between power handling and tonal quality. The 65 and 75 models are made for guys who crank their amps with heavy distortion from pedals not for tone. The Greenback type speakers and the Blues are made for tone not on purpose but by the design limitations of the 50's and 60's. It is my opinion that finding something in-between is best. Something with some tone but can handle a little power.......I don't think those speakers can do that.
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I tend to agree with some of these sentiments especially when it comes to the 70's and 75's. Additionally, those and most higher wattage speakers can sound thin unless pushed by close to same wattage as their rating. This has been my experiance when combining high total wattage ratings for speakers with 50-60 watt, or less, amps. My reccomendation of the V30 is based on the fact that it is inbetween the tone quality of classic Celestions and a higher wattage rating speaker, plus it stays tight and articulate. There's also the effciency question.

I can understand using an American voiced speaker, especially the Jensens, but those speakers arn't very loud by comparison. The stated need to better keep pace with the lead player's Rectifier would have me concerned.
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

BigDaddy said:
I have read a few things here and there and it seems people are no too happy with some of those emi speakers, the Black powder is one of them. On the other hand some people love some of those speakers.

The C12K is like a C12N on a some steroids but has some of the highs attenuated. It's a little dark sounding because of that. I had a cab with one in it a few years ago. I much preferred the C12N and I think a pair of them will do you good. I see them on ebay all the time for a reasonable price.
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i have read almost nothing but positive reviews for the new Emi speakers. The Texas Heat in my Twin sound great.
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

Like I said some people love them and some people didn't. They ended up trying a different model and was happy with that one.

As for the keeping up with the rectumfier.........that's why I originally thought that the Red, White and Blue might be the best choice....102db.
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

Jeff_H said:
The GT-75's tend to get a bad rap, and for a long time I thought I wanted something smoother. I had 2 V30's in my JCM 800 2x12. I ultimately came to realize, that for me, they were TOO smooth, not enough bite in the top end, and too smooth in the bass. A well broken in GT-75 sounds great to my ears for rock and blues.

I also like the G12-H30's for some low end thump. Ultimately I'd like to swap out two of the 75's in my Marshall 4x12 for some H30's. Should be the best of both worlds for me.

The good news is that there are plenty of great speakers around, and buying used is a great way to try some different ones out, as long as you trust the source. My advice is to try several and give them some time. Rarely do we find our ideal equipment on the first try.

Give a bunch of different ones a go, and see what you think.
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Before you purchase the G12H30's check out my Mojotones. You might like the sound of them enough to forgo the Celestions and buy Mojo's. I'm very pleased with the mojotones I've got. I have two NIB Mojotone G12H30's that I am considering putting in the tubeworks cab for the sovtek mig 50, but it's a dark amp and these might not be as good of a match as the speakers that cab already has. It could probably use a pair of vintage 30's more than a G12H30 or maybe a combination of the two. I might part with them if you want them, but I could save them and use them for other projects as well too. Either way, I think you should check out the Mojotones as they are great speakers and very affordable.
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

FamousForSustain said:
I just got an unloaded (no speakers) G-Flex 212 cab to go with my Peavey Ultra 60-Watt head. I'm trying to figure out what speakers to drop in but I've heard conflicting advice regarding wattage. Some say that the combined rating of the speakers should be at least double what the head puts out (in this case, two 60 watters would fit the bill). I've heard other people say that in order to get the cone to vibrate in a way that produces the best possible distortion (don't ask me, this is someone else talking) it is best to use the lowest wattage possible without going below what the speaker puts out. Thoughts?
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While you do need to be cognisent While you do need to be cognizant of speaker wattage, I’d choose guitar speakers based on the voice you’re looking for and not necessarily by the specs and ratings. Make sure the RMS rating of the speakers can handle the output of the amplifier and you should be fine. It’s been covered already, but I’ll reemphasize the fact that the lower wattage speakers are going to break up sooner and have less headroom than a higher wattage speaker (generally speaking). Speaker distortion is just a few steps away from mechanical failure, so be careful when ever you use lower wattage speakers.

Also, a couple of quick sub-questions to that; are there any negative effects that come from speakers that are of too high a wattage relative to the amp, assuming the impedence is correctly matched? I ask because there's a pair of 80-watt Webers I wouldn't mind throwing in if the wattage isn't an issue. Also, are higher watt speakers inherently louder than lower watt speakers or will they produce the same volume if it's the same amp being used (which I assume would be the case).
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That would be fine. You cannot underpower speakers. If that were the case your stereo speakers would blow everytime you turned the volume down. This myth was started in the car audio field, and is a result of stupidity and ignorance, not an undersized amplifier. The RMS rating on a speaker is not an indication of it's volume, either. It simply means the speaker can handle more power, which would imply that the speaker could be louder. For instance, an 80 watt speaker could infact create less measureable sound than a 30 watt speaker if both speakers are recieving 25 watts. However, at 50 watts it should be obvious which one will be louder. ;)
 
Re: Speaker Wattage Help

Yes you can underpower speakers. It's the fact that if the speaker is underpowered you need to turn the amp up to get more volume and make the tighter higher rated speaker to work. It has a lot to do with the spider. This turning up of the amp creates more distortion which is a square wave which causes over heating of the voice coil. That will cause failure or a VC rub.

I have read enough and talked to Ted Weber and with other speaker experts about subjects like this. I also had a sound reinforcement company. I wish some of the people would stop putting out erroneous information or half truths.

Stop believing everything people say and never ever believe what ratings a company gives it's equipment. Unless they are high-end professional companies with a track record of honestly rating their products, take everything with a grain of salt.

It's like horsepower on a car engine. What horsepower are you taking about? On a dyno or is it brake horsepower or it a sum and average of all the rating at different RPMs. There are many ways to measure things.

Does anybody really know what those ratings mean? RMS wattage, peak wattage, program wattage............??????????????

Sensitivity measured in db's at 1khz at one meter. What does that mean in terms of how the speaker will sound.

If you don't know what you are talking about say it's of my opinion that, not put it out as accepted fact.

It's just childish and immature. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion and stating it. That's what this is all about, but it's not right to put out bullspit and say it's fact. that does not help the people who go to forums and boards to get help.
 
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