Speakers...

[BloodRose]

Trying to decide on speakers is proving to be a mind numbing task.. I dont have money to try and swap around.. So need to be pretty certain.

I have some questions tho..
First, did some searching and seems like several have said they find WGS as good if not better than Emi. There are so many options.. Im considering going with the standards of an x of Green backs/vin 30s. Based on WGS' descriptions, they have models based on those, but say theirs are tweaked to dial out the bad points of the celestions.

In regards to Celestions.. It appears that the Heritage series are made in UK and more pricey.
What I find interesting is that the Heritage Green back is $199 and the EVH speaker is also made in UK but oddly, it is much less. Id expect it to be more as having EVH's name.. The thing with that those, is that they are rated like 20watts. Doesnt seem to me they would handle a 100 watt head.

How does one know what ohm rating to get?

Davastone, you recommend in a few threads the Classic Lead 80. and the WGS version. Why is that?

Vintage 30 is 30watts, correct? The WGS "version" is rated at 60. Would that be a big mismatch with "greenbacks" at 25?

Anyone tried the George Lynch Celestion?

I could go on and on with questions... Again , its boggling my mind
thanks for any help. or even alt suggestions

 

[Jacew]

Re: Speakers...

Trying to decide on speakers is proving to be a mind numbing task.. I dont have money to try and swap around.. So need to be pretty certain.

I have some questions tho..
First, did some searching and seems like several have said they find WGS as good if not better than Emi. There are so many options.. Im considering going with the standards of an x of Green backs/vin 30s. Based on WGS' descriptions, they have models based on those, but say theirs are tweaked to dial out the bad points of the celestions.

In regards to Celestions.. It appears that the Heritage series are made in UK and more pricey.
What I find interesting is that the Heritage Green back is $199 and the EVH speaker is also made in UK but oddly, it is much less. Id expect it to be more as having EVH's name.. The thing with that those, is that they are rated like 20watts. Doesnt seem to me they would handle a 100 watt head.

How does one know what ohm rating to get?

Davastone, you recommend in a few threads the Classic Lead 80. and the WGS version. Why is that?

Vintage 30 is 30watts, correct? The WGS "version" is rated at 60. Would that be a big mismatch with "greenbacks" at 25?

Anyone tried the George Lynch Celestion?

I could go on and on with questions... Again , its boggling my mind
thanks for any help. or even alt suggestions

V30 is 60 watts, like WGS.

Wattage doesn't make mismatch. It's just that the speaker with lowest rating determines the power handling of your rig.

If you have 2x 25 watt greenbacks and 2x V30's in X pattern powerhandling of the rig would be 25x4=100 watts.

Speaker efficiency is what determines their balance. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall Greenbacks are 96 db eff. And V30 100 db. 3 db's count for double the volume so V30 sound will be dominant.

Though it can be just fine for the rig. There's also how they tonally compliment each other.

I don't know about the EVH's, but chinese made Celestions are just great on their own right.

Then again WGS are cheaper and get lots of praise, so they're definitely worth to look at.

Eminence have their own thing. They sound usually drier, tighter and more controlled than their Celestion counterparts.

You cant wire 16 ohms to 8 ohms in 4x12, so you probably want 8 ohm speakers to use 8 ohm tap, as it's most usual. 16 ohms can do 16 ohms or 4 ohms though.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Speakers...

Are these for your Splawn?

 

[Blille]

Re: Speakers...

I've only compared WGS to Emi for American voiced. While WGS was awesome value, I still prefer Emi. YMMV etc

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Speakers...

I have only tried the Governor and the V12 as far as the British-voiced Eminences go, but I'd say they are vastly overrated. Sure, they sound OK in the room (I still prefer the Celestion V30), but throw a mic in front of them, and you get all sorts of weird almost phase-y mids, and fizzy scratchy highs. I hear those same traits in absolutely every clip I've heard of them too.

As far as Celestion goes, there are a couple speakers outside the Heritage series that are made in the UK. Both Creambacks, the Redback, and the EVH come to mind. That being said, though, the Chinese Vintage 30, H-30, and Greenback I've tried have all been stellar.

 

[devastone]

Re: Speakers...

Davastone, you recommend in a few threads the Classic Lead 80. and the WGS version. Why is that?

It has a flatter, smoother response to me, I haven't used a V30 in years, but I find the hyped midrange in those to be harsh, of course, a well broken in one might sound smoother(?). The "opposite" is the G12T-75 is kind of the opposite, with scooped mids and extended highs and lows, the Classic lead seems to sit well in between those. HTH, haven't tried the Lynchs or EVHs.

FWIW, if you are loading a 4-12 cab with 20W speakers, you will be fine running a 100W head into it unless you are cranking it, which would be louder than I've ever run in a club or practice. You're probably running it at 10W or less most of the time for garage playing.

 

[justFred]

Re: Speakers...

have never got a speaker from Ted Weber that wasn't world class for the price...

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Speakers...

WGS retro v30 and ET-65 makes quite a killer set.

I've tried both, now have a Mesa v30 (UK made) and ET-65 in my 2x12 cab. I don't like the regular production Celestion v30's, but am cool with Marshall v30's (less uppermids a bit brighter) and Mesa v30's (less uppermids and less bright than Marshall v30's). Retro v30 sounded more like a Mesa v30, more to my liking. In fact, I kinda liked WGS' retro v30 a bit more, mine (Mesa v30) is a bit stiffer. But I did not wanna spend money on that, still it's good you know.

Celestion G12-65 is a great speaker but pricey. WGS' take on that is that ET-65 and is a very nice speaker. It's a keeper...

For a while I was using G12H30 and Mesa v30... but I think ET-65 is better speaker both in combination with that v30 and by itself.

B

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Speakers...

On the G12EVH: The EVH G12M is the exact same speaker as the G12M20 Heritage Greenback. The 20 watt rating is just for historical accuracy. They handle 25 watts in a closed back cab okay. They are used in the EVH 4x12 cab for use with the 100 watt EVH 5153. 4 will probably handle a 100 watt master volume amp no problem. They are only 96 dbs efficiency which helps tame a loud amp a bit. They are warmer toned and less aggressive than the standard Greenback re-issues, and they don't have such an agonizing break in period.

Don't over look the Celestion V type as a cost effective alternative. Part V30 and part GB. 98 dbs sensitivity with 70 watts power handling.

https://celestion.com/product/142/vtype/

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Speakers...

As far as Celestion goes, there are a couple speakers outside the Heritage series that are made in the UK. Both Creambacks, the Redback, and the EVH come to mind. That being said, though, the Chinese Vintage 30, H-30, and Greenback I've tried have all been stellar.

The standard 25 watt GB reissue is apparently now made in the UK again.

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Speakers...

On the G12EVH: The EVH G12M is the exact same speaker as the G12M20 Heritage Greenback. The 20 watt rating is just for historical accuracy. They handle 25 watts in a closed back cab okay. They are used in the EVH 4x12 cab for use with the 100 watt EVH 5153. 4 will probably handle a 100 watt master volume amp no problem. They are only 96 dbs efficiency which helps tame a loud amp a bit. They are warmer toned and less aggressive than the standard Greenback re-issues, and they don't have such an agonizing break in period.

Don't over look the Celestion V type as a cost effective alternative. Part V30 and part GB. 98 dbs sensitivity with 70 watts power handling.

https://celestion.com/product/142/vtype/

Very cool suggestion! 99db vs 96db... That 3db is soo important, turns a 100W 1959 effectively into a 50W 1987. (But then again, there is the bass thumb of the bigger OT...)

B

 

[Adieu]

Re: Speakers...

Very cool suggestion! 99db vs 96db... That 3db is soo important, turns a 100W 1959 effectively into a 50W 1987. (But then again, there is the bass thumb of the bigger OT...)

B

Always wondered, ARE sensitivity dB changes and wattage difference dB's directly added and subtracted when done correctly?? Technically not too correct, but good enough for a ballpark figure (possibly because our speakers all fall around a value of ~100)???

OR... entirely wrong and there's some constant multiplier or other formula to use?

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Speakers...

Trying to decide on speakers is proving to be a mind numbing task.. I dont have money to try and swap around.. So need to be pretty certain.

I have some questions tho..
First, did some searching and seems like several have said they find WGS as good if not better than Emi. There are so many options.. Im considering going with the standards of an x of Green backs/vin 30s. Based on WGS' descriptions, they have models based on those, but say theirs are tweaked to dial out the bad points of the celestions.

In regards to Celestions.. It appears that the Heritage series are made in UK and more pricey.
What I find interesting is that the Heritage Green back is $199 and the EVH speaker is also made in UK but oddly, it is much less. Id expect it to be more as having EVH's name.. The thing with that those, is that they are rated like 20watts. Doesnt seem to me they would handle a 100 watt head.

How does one know what ohm rating to get?

Davastone, you recommend in a few threads the Classic Lead 80. and the WGS version. Why is that?

Vintage 30 is 30watts, correct? The WGS "version" is rated at 60. Would that be a big mismatch with "greenbacks" at 25?

Anyone tried the George Lynch Celestion?

I could go on and on with questions... Again , its boggling my mind
thanks for any help. or even alt suggestions

The Freidman mix is two 25 watt greenbacks up top and two Vintage 30s on bottom. The standard reissue 25 watt greenback is 98 db, so it mixes with the Vintage 30 okay.

In a 4x12 one usually wires them up series/parallel so the cabinet will be 8 ohms if they are 8 ohm speakers or 16 ohms if they are 16 ohm speakers. Mesa usually uses 8 ohm cabinets because they feel that 8 ohms gives a fatter midrange, while 16 ohms gives more treble and more bass. Marshall usually uses 16 ohm cabinets because that uses more windings in the output transformer. Use what the amp can use.

I quite like both Mesa's and Marshall's versions of the Vintage 30s, although they sound slightly different, once they are thoroughly broke in. Smooth and 3D.

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Speakers...

Always wondered, ARE sensitivity dB changes and wattage difference dB's directly added and subtracted when done correctly?? Technically not too correct, but good enough for a ballpark figure (possibly because our speakers all fall around a value of ~100)???

OR... entirely wrong and there's some constant multiplier or other formula to use?

log_10(100/x)*10=3 imples x = 10*10^(7/10) = 50.1187233627



So take two amps and say amp 1, the wattage of which is denoted by A1, is more powerful than amp 2 while A2 is the corresponding notation. Then, the dB difference between the two are given by the following formula:

dB difference = log_10(A1/A2)*10.

This is a crude computation and sorta ignores overall fq distribution. Still it is a good measure tho. So changing say 4 V30's with 4 Greenbacks would sorta turn the amp kinda into a 50W amp. But the fq distribution and feel would be different tho. It will be less loud tho. And doing a full computation also taking care of the high vol resulting in compression in human ear... well that's rocket science...

B

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Speakers...

The standard 25 watt GB reissue is apparently now made in the UK again.

I've read that too.

 

[Adieu]

Re: Speakers...

I've read that too.

G12M Greenback? Or the "Heritage Series G12M" also with the green back--- where heritage (=UK made) of course means something else entirely than in H30's...

Cause until recently, G12M Greenback was China $125, and Heritage Series G12M from UK was $175

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Speakers...

Classic (not Heritage) G12M. The one that was Chinese for some time. I used to have a Chinese one. It was good. Not any worse than the G12-EVH I also had, just different. I think the shift was very recent. I read it on rig talk. I'll see if I can find the post.

 

[Ascension]

Re: Speakers...

Been running a few WGS Speakers for a while now. Have Celestians and Eminences also on hand.
Right now am running the WGS ET series speakers in my Boogie Subway in the ET10 and a 12 inch ET 90 in my Zinky Velvet.
Have a pair of Retro 30's in my Fender 2/12 and another in my 1/12 Blackstar.
I am thinking of swapping the ET 90 to the Blackstar and the Retro 30 to the Zinky though.
What are you going for tone wise as I have run a few WGS speakers + most Celestians and also a bunch of Eminences over the years.

 

[IM4Tone]

Re: Speakers...

Here's my experience on speakers I have purchased:
I own 3 different 2X12 cabinets. Bought them all unloaded. Two were pricey (a Mojotone horizontal slant and a LOPO Line vertical slant....LOPO has since been bought by Mojotone). My third 2X12 is a very inexpensive Seismic.
I am a fan of mixing speakers chosen to compliment each other's weaknesses.
I purchased an Emi Wizard and Swamp Thang (both 16 ohms and nearly identical sensitivities) to load in the Mojo cab wired in parallel for an overall impedance of 8 ohms.
I purchased two celestions for the LOPO, a V30 and a G12H55. Both are 16 ohms paralleled for 8 ohm total.
I purchased two WGS for the Seismic, a Retro 30 and a Reaper HP same impedance specs as above. This was the economy setup for me.

I liked the WGS so much that I swapped them and the Celestions from their original installed cabs. The LOPO cab is so much better looking cosmetically and the vertical slant feature is preferable to me on stage. It's the one I use most frequently.

I find the Emi speakers to be slightly louder due to their higher sensitivities and in between the Celestions (brightest) and WGS (warmest) in tone.

Any time you mix speakers they should be IMO within 1 db of each other as far as sensitivities. All my pairings met this criteria. Most of my amps have the ability to operate properly at an 8 ohm load, so that was my target.

If you like bright, go with the Celestions I listed; if warm appeals to you do the WGS mentioned; and if you are trying to maximize volume, do the Emi's above. This of course all opinion/taste so YMMV. Good luck!

EDIT: One last thing I forgot, the WGS speakers seemed to take twice as long to break in, but I play a lot so didn't mind that.

 

[BloodRose]

Re: Speakers...

Thank you all for the info!!

Just did a quick read thru at work.. Will thoroughly read and try to digest tomorrow.

Gtrjunior,
I will most likely leave the Splawn cab (with small blocks) alone. I hear nothing but stellar things about those cabs..
The cabs Im looking to upgrade is possibly my Avatar 2x12 with celestion G12t 75s in it, but first, will upgrade my Carvin 4x12. So, not the Splawn cab, but will probably use the cab with the Splawn and definately with my Peavey Ultra Plus head.


Wonder why Friedman does it that way? I guess so the tone will hit the ear a certain way. Normally, Ive always heard of doing them in an X pattern..

Devastone, thank you for clarifying on the 80! Hmmm... interesting that I can run 20w speakers. I always thought you had to have at least 100 watts total for a 100 watt head. (4 25 watt speakers/ 2 25 watt and 2 30 watt, etc)
Yeah, I dont ever get to crank it. Think I had it up to 5 once for a couple minutes.. haha..


Thanks again all! Only speaker swap Ive ever done is swapping out the stock speaker from my PV Classic 30 and putting in an Emi Private Jack..