Still having problems with Floyd

[JerL91]

I had a thread a while ago about this but I am still having problems and didn't want to dig up the old one. I have a Schecter with a OFR (Chinese made) and have spent many hours doing a complete setup. I'm using the bottom three strings from a set of 11's and the top strings from a set of 10's. When I use the Floyd to raise the pitch the pitch of the top strings stays sharp when I let it down (the G string stays a little higher than the other two) and the bottom strings go flat (the E string, which I have tuned to D stays lower than the other two). The bridge is completely level, on both sides. It is adjusted so the action is lower on the top strings, so it is out of level that way. The tuning stays near perfect after I dive bomb, so I would think it wouldn't be worn knife edges, also in part because the guitar is only a few weeks old. When I clamped the strings in the nut the low strings went up in pitch slightly but I would think this would only be because it is clamping down on the windings tightly.

I would take it to a tech as suggested except I don't know of any place competent in area. I really don't trust them at GC. So if anyone could give me any tips of what I could try myself I would really appreciate it. I'm still way more comfortable working on something myself, even though I am new with FR's, than I am letting somebody else fool with it. Thanks, and sorry to be a pain in the ass.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

Sounds like the studs have a slight wear.

 

[JerL91]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

That's kinda what I was fearing. So I'm thinking of calling Schecter, since it should be under warranty.

 

[d1dsj]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

I think I posted in your original thread... I was having BIG tuning stability problems... mainly the G and B strings... eventually I realised that it HAD to be the bridge saddles binding or rubbing againt each other and therefore not returning to pitch. I applied some thin 3 in 1 oil in between the saddles and after weeks of problems and having the guitar professionally set up twice(!!!) my problem was finally solved! Now the guitar stays in tune for days if not weeks!

 

[JerL91]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

I tried some of that graphitall graphite lube when I assembled it so that didn't help at all. Thanks for the advice though. I'm going to call Schecter tomorrow and see what they say, as I do think that the knife edges were damaged before I even got the guitar.

 

[ryUK]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

When I use the Floyd to raise the pitch the pitch of the top strings stays sharp when I let it down (the G string stays a little higher than the other two) and the bottom strings go flat (the E string, which I have tuned to D stays lower than the other two).

Is the back of the nut worn? Have the strings worn grooves into the nut and/or nut clamps? I once had an experience where strings were slipping due to nut wear.

The bridge is completely level, on both sides. It is adjusted so the action is lower on the top strings, so it is out of level that way.

If I understand you correctly - the sides of the bridge are parallel to the body but action is lower on one side, which means the back of the bridge is not parallel/level with the body. It is likely that this is a contributor to your problem. Floyds need to sit parallel to the body, both from the bass and treble side to the front and back of the bridge. You need to set the bridge so it is completely parallel to the body from the side, and more importantly from rear; the action will be the generally same on bass and treble strings, but you can always shim the saddles to adjust the action marginally.
If you operate the Floyd whilst it is not parallel from the rear then it will not return to pitch properly and you will bind/dull the knife edges.

When I clamped the strings in the nut the low strings went up in pitch slightly but I would think this would only be because it is clamping down on the windings tightly.

Mmmm .... sounds like you're string retainer (if you have one!!) may not be set properly. Loosen and remove the 3 nut screws and clamps. Check that strings have enough break so that they are being held against the contour of the nut, from front to back. If they are rising away from the nut toward the headstock then the retainer bar needs lowering.

 

[WhoFan]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

ya a string retainer helps stop the strings from raising in pitch when you clamp the lock nut down... my Jacksons have the tilt back headstock and they still need a retainer bar as the angle of the back of the nut is greater then the headstock angle!!!!

if your G string is sticking sharp that may be causing your lower strings to go flat (or the other way around, it could be the E string going flat that causes the G tro go sharp)..... if the G string is holding the bridge from going back to it's starting neutral pivot point then try and find the sticky point... If the E string is slipping make sure the saddle is clamped down-(without stripping it of course with the soft metals they use in these!!!) Also make sure the strings are locked in the nut and saddle right.... it is a balancing act... the springs in the back hold tention pulling the bridge back and the strings pull it forward... if something adds or lowers tention in either way the guitar will not return to the correct pitch

another question i have is "are the springs in the trem stretched in"? New guitars need a while before the trem springs stop stretching during use...

and i have seen lots of Floyd knock offs with awful trem posts right from the factory... sloppy machining and soft metals.... My Jacksons moved around everytime i dived with the bar and the guitar would be out of tune... i removed the bridge and found the trem posts could rock greatly in the threaded insert inside the body... i yanked them out and installed hardened Floyd trem posts from www.stewmac.com but let a good pro install them if it's the issue... it is a job that requires some skill....

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

All of the above, but I would strongly suspect the nut. A common error I see with Floyds is the clamp plates turned through 90 degrees. The "roof ridge" of the clamp plates must be parallel to the string line so that the curvature of the top plate matches that of the base plate. you also need to make sure that the fixing screws for the nut clamp are tight.

 

[JerL91]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

I'm still currently working on it (I broke a string and didn't have any more so that slowed me down). Does it cause problems if the nut has slight grooves in it? On both the nut base and the clamps there are very slight grooves right on the edges. 75% of the nut is still flat and groove free though.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

Well, it can do but most of the ones I see have these wear marks and it doesn't generally affect their performance.

 

[JerL91]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

Well I just don't know. I've tried everything that was suggested, and everything I've read, and it still does the exact same thing. I guess I'll try to call Schecter because I've about narrowed it down to either the knife edges or the studs being messed up. I am absolutely sure it came that way and I didn't do it, so I would think they would cover it under warranty. Anyone had any experience like this and know if it would be covered, or if they would try to say it's my fault?

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

I'm guessing you are in the US. i don't know anything about consumer law in the states, in the UK you'd have to take it back to the place you bought it before contacting the manufacturer, either way I think you will find that it's a either a set-up issue or it's a problem with the nut clamp. Although you say you have done a complete set up on it it's important to realise that a skilled professional will know about things that you won't and so will be able to solve problems intuitively that you wouldn't even think of. The problem is finding that skilled professional. I see hundreds of guitars a year that have been set up by their owners or "friends" of the owner or "professional technicians" and in the last year I can't recall seeing more than two or three who have got it right. I've got one in my workshop that was done by someone I know well in a neighbouring city and whose website advertises "a state of the art workshop offering professional standard repairs catering to the needs of professional musicians". In the words of my customer "I paid him 40 quid and all he did was change the strings and screw the bridge down as far as it will go"

What model is your Schecter? I have a Damien on the bench at the moment for a set up, maybe I could compare it's performance and give you some feedback. If I can duplicate the problem it might be some help...

 

[Philcguitars]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

Still having problems with Floyd!

Eddie, Pink, Pretty Boy, Rose? Couldn't resist!

 

[WhoFan]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

one tuning issue i had with one of my floyds was so silly... i had a G String-not a bun thong (_Y_).... a G string break and i missed taking the broken end out of the trem saddle block... when i put a new string on the broken piece inside the saddle clamp allowed the new string to slip a little inside during trem use... that sent the guitar out of tune!!! it was so silly.....

another issue i've seen lately with my cheaper Floyd copies is the nut is held with 2 small wood screws and they were not strong enough to hold the nut in place... The nut would move back towards the headstock during trem dives... the force of the strings pulling at the headstock would rock the nut slightly back when you slackened the strings with a bar dive... pain in the butt

 

[JerL91]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

It's a Hellraiser C-1, octavedoctor. Do the mounting screws for the nut go into the wood on most guitars, or do they have bushings they thread into? I checked these the other day and they weren't really super snug so I gave them a tiny little turn, but didn't want to go overboard. I would normally assume that I just wasn't getting the tuning right, except when I took the guitar down to put pickups in it, the knife edge on the treble side actually looked like it was damaged. It looked like it wasn't seated correctly when the guitar was tuned up the first time and it kind of mashed it over slightly. I'll keep working on it I guess, it's just really getting to be frustrating. I would just take it somewhere, it would be more than worth the price, I just have to see if I can find somewhere I can trust, so it actually would be worth it.

 

[WhoFan]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

i've been working on one of my Jackson's today... what a pain this thing has been... the strings have been slipping, the nut has been moving, the saddles have been moving... I got everything clamped down tight and all stay in tune except 1 string is giving me greef... weird issue on the low E string... if i bend the string sharp anywhere on the neck it falls flat out of tune slightly... YET WHEN I GIVE THE BAR A LITTLE WIGGLE IT RETURNS BACK TO PERFECT PITCH! The trem is set to rest on a piece of wood so it's not floating... It's weird how it falls flat when i bend notes on the E string yet returns to perfect pitch if i give the bar a slight dip and return...

This thing is a pain in my butt

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

It's a Hellraiser C-1, octavedoctor. Do the mounting screws for the nut go into the wood on most guitars, or do they have bushings they thread into? I checked these the other day and they weren't really super snug so I gave them a tiny little turn, but didn't want to go overboard.

There's your problem. if the nut clamp base ain't tight, it's not going to hold it's tuning. Are you handy with a drill? The holes for the fixing screws need to be plugged and redrilled. I had to do this on the Damien the other day. It does require some skill...

If you decide to do it yourself, be careful; message me for some tips. There are things you need to know, but I can't magic you the skill unfortunately even though in Bridgend they call me the Wizard of Og...

I would normally assume that I just wasn't getting the tuning right, except when I took the guitar down to put pickups in it, the knife edge on the treble side actually looked like it was damaged.

You'd be surprised how much wear and tear these can take. Put some baby oil or vaseline on them they'll be fine.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

i've been working on one of my Jackson's today... what a pain this thing has been... the strings have been slipping, the nut has been moving, the saddles have been moving... I got everything clamped down tight and all stay in tune except 1 string is giving me greef... weird issue on the low E string... if i bend the string sharp anywhere on the neck it falls flat out of tune slightly... YET WHEN I GIVE THE BAR A LITTLE WIGGLE IT RETURNS BACK TO PERFECT PITCH! The trem is set to rest on a piece of wood so it's not floating... It's weird how it falls flat when i bend notes on the E string yet returns to perfect pitch if i give the bar a slight dip and return...

This thing is a pain in my butt

The nut clamp is moving. Get it stabilised and you'll see an improvement. This is similar to the "snatchback" effect that occurs on conventional tuners if the spring washer between the button and the tuner stem isn't fully compressed.

Here is what is happening: when you bend a string the nut clamp shifts slightly. the back tension on it from the headstock harp is not enough to return it to the original position until you dip the trem arm then the differential tension is enough to pull the nut back into the original balance point

The old style Floyds had two cap head screws going through the back of the headstock. This gave a much more stable nut, but was much more complicated to manufacture and install.

Putting some double sided carpet tape underneath may help to stabilise it as well, but only as an adjunct to the screws which need to be tight.

 

[JerL91]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

Thanks a bunch octavedoctor. I decided to get ballsy yesterday and tightened the nut mount screws as tight as I could and it is holding tune much better now. I guess they either just loosened up or weren't tight from the factory, so it should be good now. It's still not perfect but I'll play it for a while to see if it settles in.

 

[WhoFan]

Re: Still having problems with Floyd

The nut clamp is moving. Get it stabilised and you'll see an improvement. This is similar to the "snatchback" effect that occurs on conventional tuners if the spring washer between the button and the tuner stem isn't fully compressed.

Here is what is happening: when you bend a string the nut clamp shifts slightly. the back tension on it from the headstock harp is not enough to return it to the original position until you dip the trem arm then the differential tension is enough to pull the nut back into the original balance point

The old style Floyds had two cap head screws going through the back of the headstock. This gave a much more stable nut, but was much more complicated to manufacture and install.

Putting some double sided carpet tape underneath may help to stabilise it as well, but only as an adjunct to the screws which need to be tight.

Thanks for the help... ya i kind of figured it's the nut... I tightened them down hard today and it did help but not completely... after i tightened them down hard i found i also have to reshim it as i'm getting a sitar sound from the G string touching the lower frets! It never ends...

I've debated about drilling holes thru the headstock for the machine screws... It's a real FRO nut i added... Only issue is this is a Jackson with a super thin neck... not much Maple around the nut area to begin with... could be taking a hugh chance of snaping the headstock right off... It's slightly shorter then the old nut that was on there so i've had to shim it which seems to be the issue... The shim material is compressing and allowing the nut to move... For shims I have been trying everything from Business cards, to Maple Veneer, to Aluminum Foil....

A local store suggested super glueing the lock nut in place!!!