Still Lost Re Recording Gear

[Lazarus1140]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

PCI == slowish bus with slots. Ignore.

S/PDIF == digital in. If you have a device with digital out you can "transport" the sound into the computer (aka recording) without any kind of change in the sound. Very good for reproducibility.

In the manual it appears that the S/PDIF input is for loading video from a camera to the computer??!!??, but I think I understand what you mean .......... rather than inside the computer, the possibility of sound change due to conversion from analog to digital now exists in the device with the digital out.

Others suggest the Line 6 stuff which I know is good. I played with a guy for the last two weekends who uses a Pod X3 into the effects return on his Hot Rod Deluxe and it sounds amazing.

I am trying to get a faithful digital reproduction of my analog input. For example, I have a StraBro-90 neck/JD bridge set I'd like to install in my Tele. First, I'd like to lay down and save some sample clean and dirt tones in all pick up positions with the A2 Pros that are currently installed. Then I can switch the pups and lay down tracks with all settings the same. That will be the closest way I can think of to do a side by side tone comparison. I know for certain I can't depend on my memory well enough to compare.

I am not trying to produce a CD for release. I want to hear what a microphone "hears" out of my speaker cabinet. I want to work with mic placement and stomp box settings so I can adjust what I'm sending to the mains in my normal playing situation. I have heard line feed recordings at church and I am more than a little disappointed.

I appreciated the value of modeling gear, but I have many top shelf analog pedals that I prefer using. I'm not a snob about it ....... as I said, it is a matter of preference.

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

The major reason why I use a PCI soundcard (as opposed to onboard) is that if I have to switch computers I want to take the soundcard with me, so that the result are consistent.

See ... this is one of the basic hardware items I apparently do not understand. What is a PCI soundcard if it is not a soundcard that is installed into a PCI slot? Do you see why I don't understand?

While you are undoubtedly using very common, widely understood terms, it is high school English to me while I've just started kindergarden here lol.

What is the make and model # of the PCI soundcard that you use?
Can/do you plug your guitar straight into it?
Will it accept a low impedance mic cord connection?
Does it provide phantom power for a mic if needed?
Will it accept MIDI input from a keyboard?

If not, am I correct in believing that there must be an intermediary device to covert analog input to digital .... at least in the case of mic or guitar input?

 

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

See ... this is one of the basic hardware items I apparently do not understand. What is a PCI soundcard if it is not a soundcard that is installed into a PCI slot? Do you see why I don't understand?

While you are undoubtedly using very common, widely understood terms, it is high school English to me while I've just started kindergarden here lol.

What is the make and model # of the PCI soundcard that you use?
Can/do you plug your guitar straight into it?
Will it accept a low impedance mic cord connection?
Does it provide phantom power for a mic if needed?
Will it accept MIDI input from a keyboard?

If not, am I correct in believing that there must be an intermediary device to covert analog input to digital .... at least in the case of mic or guitar input?

Here are some options for PCI cards, read about them it should answer your questions.

http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.family&ID=PCIinterfaces

 

[uOpt]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

See ... this is one of the basic hardware items I apparently do not understand. What is a PCI soundcard if it is not a soundcard that is installed into a PCI slot? Do you see why I don't understand?

No. Same thing. I don't know why you think I have something else than a PCI soundcard which is just a soundcard in a PCI slot.

The alternatives to PCI soundcards are USB soundcards, firewire connected soundcards (they usually have a different name there) and the occasional PCIe (PCI express).

What is the make and model # of the PCI soundcard that you use?

I use a card based on the C-media CMI8738-MC chip. The particular make isn't that important as long as it has a chip you get good drivers for (hence my choice of this particular chip) and as long as it has a good analog part.

I also want both S/PDIF in and out, many cards (Creative in particular) only have in. Creative is really in the business of ripping people off who just blast media out, not the recording crowd.

The particular model of soundcard I have is a "Turtle Beach TBS-3300-01 7.1 Channels PCI Interface Montego DDL".

Can/do you plug your guitar straight into it?

No, you need a high impedance input for that. That is very rare. My Tascam US-122 has that.

But you don't need a high impedance input if you have any effect in between. A GE-7 as a "preamp" would be sufficient.

But why would you record a guitar directly? The dynamics are far too wild to use it to later mess with simulating a guitar rig?

Will it accept a low impedance mic cord connection?

Yes, almost all soundcards have a mic in which has the right impedance.

Of course the quality of the components plays an even larger role here than for line in.

I use a real mixer as a "mic preamp" and go into the line in from there.

Does it provide phantom power for a mic if needed?

No. Again, only my Tascam US-122 and 428 do that.

Will it accept MIDI input from a keyboard?

The midi port is there but internal only, you need a slot guard with the connector.

If not, am I correct in believing that there must be an intermediary device to covert analog input to digital .... at least in the case of mic or guitar input?

Again, why would you want to record a guitar directly into a soundcard?

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

No. Same thing. I don't know why you think I have something else than a PCI soundcard which is just a soundcard in a PCI slot.

It is because the vernacular is foreign to me. You mentioned the ability to take your soundcard with you so I envisioned something completely outboard as opposed to something mounted inside the computer. It is probably hard for anyone to understand or believe how little I know about computers ....... and I use one for endless hours at work almost every day.

But why would you record a guitar directly? The dynamics are far too wild to use it to later mess with simulating a guitar rig?

But you don't need a high impedance input if you have any effect in between. A GE-7 as a "preamp" would be sufficient.

Last night was my first success just getting the thing to record. I didn't want to add elements like a mic to complicate matters, and I didn't want to insert the mixer at this time so I ran my guitar through my pedal board directly into the line-in of this:

http://asia.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=872&product=16559&listby=usage

and it provided satisfactory results ....... good enough that I am anxious to begin exploring the operation of the recording program itself.

As I admitted, the SounBlaster set-up is targeted for the gaming crowd, but I my initial impression was that it will suffice for now while finances are tight.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

It is because the vernacular is foreign to me. You mentioned the ability to take your soundcard with you so I envisioned something completely outboard as opposed to something mounted inside the computer. It is probably hard for anyone to understand or believe how little I know about computers ....... and I use one for endless hours at work almost every day.

Ah.

What I meant is if I switch which computer I record on I can take the soundcard with me. That way I have consistent results.

Last night was my first success just getting the thing to record. I didn't want to add elements like a mic to complicate matters, so I ran my guitar through my pedal board directly into the line-in of this:

http://asia.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=872&product=16559&listby=usage

and it provided satisfactory results ....... good enough that I am anxious to begin exploring the operation of the recording program itself.

After you go through a pedalboard with at least one pedal active you do not have to have a high-impedance input anymore.

What's the last active effect in that board?

As I admitted, the SounBlaster set-up is targeted for the gaming crowd, but I my initial impression was that it will suffice for now while finances are tight.

As I said, if it works it works. Whether you suffer from sound quality loss is a different question.

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

What's the last active effect in that board?

The last active pedal was a Maxon AD-999 delay. I tried to use a Fulltone Supa-Trem (which is mounted after the delay), but it was doing something weird. My granddaughter was jerking on the cable so who knows. I need to run it into the amp tonight to see if the pedal has flipped out or if it is some sort of mismatch with the Audigy input. I used the tremolo Sunday with no problem.

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

As for the track issues - go through the program's options menu and preferences settings and all the sub-menus to find everything in it. Somewhere in there you'll find the settings for default track/session layout (mono vs stereo, 44.1kHz vs 48kHz, etc).

The SPDIF input is also known as lightpipe and fiber optic. Your Casio might have an output that would connect to it, but it's not essential at this stage.

The Line In will do you just fine for now, and for about the next year or so as you learn the intricacies of PC-based recording.

One very important thing to remember is that the PC's speakers will never sound like your amp, unless your amp is made from PC speakers. This is usually the first complaint new recordists have, and it's always the one I find to be the most obvious. A 100w amp head into a 4x12 cabinet cranked and killing the neighbors cannot be matched by any self-powered external WalMart-bought PC speakers, even if they are 7.1 Surround Sound with a 6" woofer.

As well, most PC speakers are voiced to accentuate the bass (so those video game explosions and mp3s rock). You can throw a bunch of money at some full range/flat response self-powered studio monitors ($$$$$) but quite frankly, no one but the Puritanical audiophiles actually listen to pre-recorded music through them, and no one but the professional studio engineer who has to master tracks for all-system compatability actually needs them. They're a nice toy to impress your friends with, but that's about it.

Once you start recording tracks, get used to how different your tone is when comparing the amp to the PC speakers.

Above all, take your time. It's learning a new instrument, so nothing is going to happen overnight. Record a few things and put them on a CD and put it in your car stereo, your home stereo, and whatever else you can find. This will give you a good idea of how your mixes will sound in various systems, and you'll be able to dial in the EQ in your mixes to accommodate all of them equally.
But, as I said, that takes time. Your ears have to be trained to spot the things that need to be fixed in the mix, and only experience will tell you what needs to be fixed at the source (i.e. the amp or other input source).

Post-production EQ can only do so much, so the better sound you have going in, the better it's going to sound coming out.


Another major point many guitarists fail to realize is that everything in a mix has to work together. You can get away with a lot in a live setting - vocals and solos are sharing frequencies, bass and drums are competing for freqs, etc. In a recording situation, such is not the case. A low-level bass thump perfectly synched to the kick will stack on top of each other, increasing the output, and thus driving that one thump into Peak territory. Add a synchronized palm muted guitar chug to it and you've hit the Red Zone. That's where you blow speakers.

As well, when each one hits separately, they don't sound as heavy, so you find yourself trying to crank the gain on each one, only to have the 3-part stack thumping even harder than before, and still heavier than each component.

This is where Compression can be both a friend and a traitor.

Compression smoothes out the spikes. However, the higher the spike, the more it gets cut. So much so that where the 3-part thump was previously louder than anything else, it's now softer than anything else, and you have this odd "ssssSSSHHHHP" effect building up after each one, as well as what sound like cymbal swells where you didn't want one.


And that's only the very basics of PC recording. Wait till you get to the part where you have to pan mono tracks to keep them separate, and actually futzing with the graphic EQ to notch out certain frequencies.


People who complain about not being able to understand women have never experienced the greater challenge - sound engineering :lol:

Somehow I missed this post until this morning. Thanks for the input and sound advice, Doc. In addition to my low quality Creative computer speakers I run the headphone out to an Ibanez acoustic guitar amplifier. This makes the listening substantially more HiFi!

I am enjoying just playing along with the click track. It's funny, all these years I thought I had an above average internal clock and excellent timing. That may have been true years ago but it's certainly not now. I see improvement in the immediate forecast!

Regarding the 44.1kHz vs 48kHz setting, what am I trying to match this setting to?

 

[Petrovsk Mizinski]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

One thing that should be mentioned, once you start recording full mixes, you can't really be relying on your trusty Ibanez acoustic amp.
For rock music (pop rock, death metal, doesn't matter) you'll be panning 2 or 4 rhythm tracks hard left and right. You need two speakers to be able to hear this properly. You'll also be panning drum tracks, no necessarily hard left or right for anything, but you will be doing that most likely.

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

One thing that should be mentioned, once you start recording full mixes, you can't really be relying on your trusty Ibanez acoustic amp.
For rock music (pop rock, death metal, doesn't matter) you'll be panning 2 or 4 rhythm tracks hard left and right. You need two speakers to be able to hear this properly. You'll also be panning drum tracks, no necessarily hard left or right for anything, but you will be doing that most likely.

Great point .... thanks, Petro! I really never thought of that.

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

The last active pedal was a Maxon AD-999 delay. I tried to use a Fulltone Supa-Trem (which is mounted after the delay), but it was doing something weird. My granddaughter was jerking on the cable so who knows. I need to run it into the amp tonight to see if the pedal has flipped out or if it is some sort of mismatch with the Audigy input. I used the tremolo Sunday with no problem.

Last night I ran my effects board into my amp as usual and there were no problems with the tremolo. For some reason though, it sort of flutters when I run it into the Line-In of the Sound Blaster box. Not only that, but when I increase the MIX setting on the Supa-Trem the volume drops.

Weirdness!

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

The fluttering is probably the latency between the Audigy and the effect, or the Analog-Digital conversion process itself, and/or the speed of the ASIO driver the Audigy came with (which does the A-D conversion). It could also be related to your processor speed and/or disk drive speed and/or RAM usage.

Regarding the 44/48kHz question, you're basically given 2 primary options in most recording programs as to what sample rate (speed) you want to record at - 44.1kHz or 48kHz.
There are, of course, several sample rates on either side of those - from 8kHz (slowest, crappiest sound, like a telephone) to 96kHz and above (better sound, like CD or reality).

For now I'd stick with 44.1kHz as it's quicker to get stuff on disk as it is less processor-and-RAM-intensive, whereas 48kHz takes more CPU/RAM power. Waiting for the PC to catch up and write stuff to the disk cache can suck the fun out of it - especially if everything you do has to be approved by the Windows Committee .dll :lol:

Most professional studios that record to full digital setups (PC/hard drives or digital cassette tape) will use 48kHz at the very least, but full-on digital can go as high as 96kHz. But, as I said, 44.1 will do you just fine. It's most likely the format of any backing tracks you may download from the internet, and it's pretty much "standard" in that respect.

Not all recording programs will allow you to use clips in a multitrack session that are not all of the same sample rate (Adobe Audition 3 defaults to 48k for multitrack, and it expects anything recorded or imported into a session to be 48k. If it's not, it'll bug you to convert it to 48k before proceeding).

Check the status bar at the bottom of the recording program to see if it says anything like "48000" and the currect track length and such. That'll tell you what the program is expecting the sample rate to be, and what it's telling the Audigy to do to the incoming signal.


As an example of the problems one can expect when mixing 44.1 and 48kHz tracks, it was reported that at a Van Halen show a couple of years ago, they had a pre-recorded intro track for Jump that was apparently running at 48kHz. It was off-key from the band's tuning because of that. I think there's a YouTube of it.

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

Let me ask another question that will explain just how little I know. If you use one of the Line6 Pod Studio products, do you bypass the soundcard entirely with the USB port? And then do you do all the processing on the file that records? Am I totally off?

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

Another question for those in the know:

If I understand it correctly some recording software, Cakewalk's Sonar Home Studion for example, will print out musical notation ...... I suppose of a recorded keyboard part. My toy keyboard has a MIDI out. If the Soundcard does not have a MIDI in forcing me to run the keyboard sound out of its headphone jack and then into a line-in to get it into the software, would this disable the notation writing feature? I mean, is it dependant upon the MIDI input?


Totally Unrelated Side Note - I like the look of the Line 6 stuff and suspect that the quality is good, but I'm not so sure about the products they are bundled with.
Grrrr .... marketing agreements!!!

 

[uOpt]

Re: Still Lost Re Recording Gear

Another question for those in the know:

If I understand it correctly some recording software, Cakewalk's Sonar Home Studion for example, will print out musical notation ...... I suppose of a recorded keyboard part. My toy keyboard has a MIDI out. If the Soundcard does not have a MIDI in forcing me to run the keyboard sound out of its headphone jack and then into a line-in to get it into the software, would this disable the notation writing feature? I mean, is it dependant upon the MIDI input?

Yes, very few software can figure notes from actual music, and then only single-note melodies.

The midi transmission on has the notes but no clue about which sound etc.