stomp box vs multi

[WhoFan]

Re: stomp box vs multi

Show me the stuff where Gilmour and Beck derive the majority of their tones from multi effects processors, and you'll have a point relevant to this thread. Otherwise, these guys are using digital technology (not multi fx processors!) for specific purposes. For example, digital delays for long delay times...a necessity. That's why companies like T-Rex spend so much time in R&D to make their pedals sound as close to analog as possible, and then charge accordingly. There is no analog Whammy pedal, otherwise you could be sure that Gilmour would be using it. Could you also explain how the Whammy pedal is relevant to the issue of multi effects processors? Beck did some of his demos with Line 6, and then liked the takes so much and didn't want to have to redo them. Show me where Jeff Beck uses Line 6 live. One or two tracks in a 40 year career might not be the best example to demonstrate your point.

There are several guitarists who have made huge careers without pedals. They include the likes of Angus and Malcolm Young and BB King. They haven't needed any, because they have one trademark sound that they have brilliantly integrated into every piece of music they have made. It's a great sound, but the point is, they don't need diversity in a live performance setting. And that's why I used the term "vast majority." Last time we discussed this, I posted a list of guitar players who use analog pedals. It probably isn't necessary to go over it again. Suffice to say, it constitutes the "vast majority" of guitar playing legends.

Feel free to provide a list of pro players who use multi effects processors to generate their fundamental tone. Mincer got that list started with the likes of Fripp, Belew and McLaughlin, however in each case, it was either rackmount processors, amp modellers or computer based modelling software. Also in the case of Fripp and Belew, these are guys who are renowned for stretching the bounds of guitar noises and who are deliberately moving as far away as possible from traditional tones. This is, as Mincer rightly pointed out, a great thing. But it's not going to serve the "vast majority." Try turning up to an audition for a local Rock/Blues/Funk/Pop/Ska/Reggae/Punk/Grunge/Metal/Country band with your multi effects processor and a bunch of Frippesque patches and a looper.




Cheers................................wahwah

i remember reading a Jeff Beck interview lately that said one of his last albums he ended up using a Line 6 POD Pro 2.0 in the studio a bit as it was less hassel and it sounded better then his Marshall set up that week... they spent days trying to get the mic placement right... in the end they tried the POD just fooling around and it sounded better to Jeff that week... which album and how much it was used i'm not sure

I'm sure there is lots of digital Modelers being used in studios these days on big recordings... not many pros are using modelers live..... Pat Travers is said to have done some gigs with a VOX Tone Lab LE.... but all the info i can see on line shows he is playing thru some nice expensive tube amps and some pedals..

the very first thing i do when i try a Multifx Modeler is to take all the delay and chorus sounds off and hear what the amp modeled sounds are like by themselfs.... most modelers sound like dung without the delays to make that spaceish sound.... some modelers are alright....

 

[Mincer]

Re: stomp box vs multi

LOL, I have to say I thought the exact same thing. No disrespect for Fripp or Belew etc, but I'm not sure those guys really have "good" tone. one of the papers I shoot for covers alot of experimental, post rock and noise bands. I see lots of multifx units and honestly can't say any of them ever sounded "good" to be. Weird yes, creative maybe, but certainly not rich, lush and vibrant.

I remember last time I saw Kenny Wayne Shepard. Simple board with some really nice modded analog pedals. You couldn't help but be struck with how good his guitar sounded. So rich and full, you could hear every note.

Now yes part of it is his hands of course, but theres simply no way he'd sound the same through a digitech RP series multi-fx box.

See I hear the opposite- I saw KWS back on one of the first G3 tours. Opening was Fripp. Besides the soundscape stuff (which I love), his actual guitar tone was abolutely warm and vibrant to me, not to mention a voice all his own- . KWS came out after with a tone so....standard...that I couldn't hear a unique voice or tone in there. 'Good' as in nailing a classic tone, I guess, but that isn't so hard with a few pedals, a Strat and a tube amp.
That is, he sounded like every other texas blues inspired guitarist out there to me...note choices, tone, and even stage moves.
Hearing them play side by side on 'Red House' confirmed it- while Satch, Vai, Fripp and Keneally had seriously better technique than KWS, they actually had really unique voices too.
In the end, no matter how you use the tools, you aren't gonna reach anyone if 1. it plain sounds bad and 2. you have nothing unique to say.

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: stomp box vs multi

Man I guess I will be the odd man out here...

I just bought a Vox Tonelab LE and I think the Tone is very, very good. However (yes this is the disclaimer) it was very complicated to setup and learn. Once you have your banks and patches (programs in the Tonelab) setup it is easy to use. You can get a variety of sounds that are not half-bad.

That being said, pedals, typically just sound better; but they are a one trick pony. Versatility is the name of my game and thats what I need for when I play so the multi fits my need.

(second disclaimer, I have yet to play live with the Tonelab so I will see how it really performs this Sunday and post an update).
(third disclaimer, it took me hours, of tweaking and setup and reading the manual to get the sounds I wanted and to get them sounding good. It is complicated and thats from someone who is a computer virus researcher for a living)

too many disclaimers, buy yourself some stompboxes...

Can you get a realstic, laid back, acoustic type sound for the intro on the last song?

 

[Binnerscot]

Re: stomp box vs multi

A good multi - Yamaha Magicstomp works well. Costs less, effects are as good if not better than many stomp boxes, less cable, not difficult to operate, etc.

I don't know why individual stomps still exist except for the retro mentality and boutique market?

I didn't say that to start an argument, I just haven't ever heard any boost/distortion/OD pedal that sounds anywhere near as good as a nice amp.

Though there are some nice effects pedals, why would I buy a good delay, good reverb, and a good chorus pedal for a minimum of $300+ when many digital units excel at those three effect areas and have better routing and MIDI options.

Just my two cents......

 

[WhoFan]

Re: stomp box vs multi

i can't wait for the Converters to be designed better and to come down in price so modern Digital FX's have better feel to them..... the faster the Convertion the less lag...

 

[dystrust]

Re: stomp box vs multi

i can't wait for the Converters to be designed better and to come down in price so modern Digital FX's have better feel to them..... the faster the Convertion the less lag...

I seriously doubt converters have anything to do with the 'feel' of digital effects for several reasons. First of all, speed isn't the issue. Most if not all converters on the market today have about 3ms of latency, and it isn't possible to reduce this due to propagation delay. (the electrons can't move faster) In these 3ms sound can only travel about 3 feet which would barely be perceptible. The two most important factors when discussing converters are bit depth and sample rate. A guitar doesn't have a great deal of dynamic range, so the approximately 50db that 16 bit converters allow is plenty. Most pedal manufacturers don't publish sample rates, so this one could be difficult. A rate of 44.1 Khz (CD quality) is plenty for effects pedals. Start to drop below this and there can be some degradation in sound quality.

My guess at why digital fx units feel different is because digital devices don't soft clip or compress the way analog devices can. You have either zero compression / clipping or you have hard clipping.

 

[wahwah]

Re: stomp box vs multi

A good multi - Yamaha Magicstomp works well. Costs less, effects are as good if not better than many stomp boxes, less cable, not difficult to operate, etc.

I don't know why individual stomps still exist except for the retro mentality and boutique market?

I didn't say that to start an argument, I just haven't ever heard any boost/distortion/OD pedal that sounds anywhere near as good as a nice amp.

Though there are some nice effects pedals, why would I buy a good delay, good reverb, and a good chorus pedal for a minimum of $300+ when many digital units excel at those three effect areas and have better routing and MIDI options.

Just my two cents......

I think the reason that individual OD/Distortion stomps still exist is because not everyone can get away with just using one sound. In the course of a year, I would work with up to a dozen different artists, and each of them would have a different requirement from my role in the band. Then, within each artist's repertoire, there will be the requirement for a variety of different styles of gain structure. Then within each song, there might be two or three styles of gain structure required for verse, bridge, chorus, mid 8 and solo. There are very few amps, if any, that can provide that sort of versatility. In fact, even as it stands, I will use different amps as my clean foundation for different gigs, to better suit the overall texture required by that artist's repertoire. This is where the pedals come in. I have found pedals that excel at providing various levels of gain, and no, I have never heard anything that approaches their quality in a Japanese digital multi effects box, nor in a modeling amp or POD. The rackmount POD stuff gets closest, but it still can't match the tone coming from an Ulbrick 12AXE, or a well built germanium treble booster, for example. It can certainly match a stock TS-9, but that's a pedal that I would never bother spending money on.

Similarly, the delay, chorus and phase sounds I have heard coming from multi effects boxes, even after hours of tweaking, do not come close to my Dimension C, DM-2 Analog Delay and 70's MXR phasers. When it comes to reverb, I personally prefer tube driven spring reverb in an amp to the digital reverb algorithm from a cheap multi effects unit, or an expensive rackmount for that matter. These may all be a matter of personal taste, and so what suits one person and fulfills their needs may be totally unacceptable crud to another. As it stands, until I hear something from a multi fx unit that challenges what I already have working for me and helping me make a living, why on earth would I want to change it?

If a multi fx box serves your purpose, then that's all you need to know. Some players don't have many specific requirements placed on their tone producing capabilities. Let's face it, some players don't have any requirements placed on their tone producing capabilities. They could argue all day that their chosen multi fx box does everything that anyone could ever need. In my case, I know for certain without a shadow of a doubt that there is not one single multi fx box anywhere on earth that even comes close to fulfilling my requirements. However, the carefully chosen range of pedals I have at my disposal have been selected to do exactly that, and they do it with flair. Is this "tone snobbery?" I say no, these are my professional requirements. These are the factors that obviously colour my view. If anyone else's requirements are fulfilled by a multi fx box, then all power to ya!



Cheers.................................wahwah

 

[Binnerscot]

Re: stomp box vs multi

Is this "tone snobbery?" I say no, these are my professional requirements. These are the factors that obviously colour my view. If anyone else's requirements are fulfilled by a multi fx box, then all power to ya!

I think you mis-understood me. I have never seen a multi that does everything well, but I have seen many that do the core sounds very well - on par with the hodge podge of pedals out there. One good multi will cost the same or usually less than a pile of pedals. I kind of feel for you having to lug all that around.

If I ever think I need to reach for an OD/Dist/Boost - I need to buy a new amp because it has failed its mission, but that is my take on that subject :drill:

Those that like the stomps can have 'em, I can't dance worth a crap....I like hitting one buton on a MIDI controller that switches the channel (to include power tubes, 50-100-or more-watts output power, rectification, and speaker routing on a Road King), FX loops, and FX patch and other such things on a G-Major in a single shot - instantly.

 

[millsart]

Re: stomp box vs multi

I think you mis-understood me. I have never seen a multi that does everything well, but I have seen many that do the core sounds very well - on par with the hodge podge of pedals out there. One good multi will cost the same or usually less than a pile of pedals.

Theres your answer right there. If you want to have EVERY effect you run in your chain do its job as good as it gets (to subjective taste) seperate pedals are the answer.

Why would I want to compromise on a unit that doesn't do everything well simply because it can do a few sounds well ? Whats the point of that ? Wheres the fun in that ?

Why limit yourself to just one taste of chorus that comes with your mfx box and hope you like it when theres so many excellent choices out there. Maybe a Boss CE-1 is to your liking, or perhaps if not try a CE-2, maybe go a different route with a Small Clone, so on and so forth.


Some people are happy with one mfx box, and some people are happy with one guitar or one amp.

Others enjoy having a bunch of different guitars, several amps and a ton of pedals.

Neither is more "correct", its just what comes down to making the person happy.


Getting new pedals personally makes me way happy lol

 

[Binnerscot]

Re: stomp box vs multi

Theres your answer right there. If you want to have EVERY effect you run in your chain do its job as good as it gets (to subjective taste) seperate pedals are the answer.

Why would I want to compromise on a unit that doesn't do everything well simply because it can do a few sounds well ? Whats the point of that ? Wheres the fun in that ?

Why on earth would anyone want that many effects on - period. I use some delay, or maybe some verb, or maybe some chorus or maybe some light combinations of those - oh wait that would be three pedals to do that....hmmm, but what if I want to have just a little verb here and more verb there, well I could buy another verb pedal.....get my point now. In fact, I like multi units that are fairly stripped down with just a handfull of really good sounding FX, not the "it will do everything" stuff.

I guess I should explain my dislike for pedals. Years ago I was a front of house engineer, I did that for a long time. Every ****ed guitarist and even some bassists had a pile of pedals that did nothing but bleed noise, get beer spilled on them and short out, have batteries die, cables disconnect, get lost on a dark stage, etc. Yet I don't remember any memorable tones from the pedal guys. The best sounds I heard were a guitar into a good amp with a good set of hands on the strings. Those guys used few effects and very lightly at that. I remember those guys.

I remember pedals from my youth when I needed a distortion pedal because my amp at the time just didn't do it. It still sounded like poo....no pedals for me ever again a time based effects into the front end just aren't that tasty. I want delay on the guitar sound not delay on a dry signal and both the dry and the delay will then go through a series of gain stages. If the guitar into the amp doesn't do it, pedals won't fix it. Good FX are like salt and pepper for mighty fine steak, a pile of pedals is like the mushroom sauce topping at Ponderosa.

I know a lot folks like pedals, but everytime I see them I chuckle a bit and think of my youth.

 

[millsart]

Re: stomp box vs multi

Eventide is very cool gear, I used to own an Orville when I had my studio, but while it sounds good, that stuff is torture to use.

Sitting there pressing buttons and staring at tiny screens, with a manual and block diagrams in hand is no way to create music if you ask me.

 

[millsart]

Re: stomp box vs multi

Why on earth would anyone want that many effects on - period. I use some delay, or maybe some verb, or maybe some chorus or maybe some light combinations of those - oh wait that would be three pedals to do that....hmmm, but what if I want to have just a little verb here and more verb there, well I could buy another verb pedal.....get my point now. In fact, I like multi units that are fairly stripped down with just a handfull of really good sounding FX, not the "it will do everything" stuff.

Just because you have alot of pedals doesn't mean you've got to have them all on. You simply use what the track needs and keep the rest off. Or put them into a sidechain which works even better as you can then kick in several effects at once.

I've never found any mfx box that had an decent univibe in it

I've never found any mfx box that could mimic the tracking and organic analog sound of a foxrox octron octave pedal

I've never found any mfx box that could do a halfway decent analog filter effect

Or how about a fuzz face effect ? Theres no way digital is going to be able to interact with the guitars volume knob the same was a good germainium fuzz circuit can.


I've owned a ton of mfx units over the years, from the cheap to the very high end. They can indeed do some decent bread and butter, but who's inspired by bread and butter ?

Not me at least, I need the pure visceral experience that is a wah into a fuzzface into a vibe pedal with a hot amp.

Your just not going to get anything that comes close to "Machine Gun" from a do it all wonder box.

 

[wahwah]

Re: stomp box vs multi

To all those who said pedals, i should be noted that the argument is not 'Pedals Vs this etc

Are you sure? Do you think the original poster was asking about $5,500 worth of pedals Vs an Eventide H8000? And when various multi fx supporters have suggested that their option is cheaper, they were meaning that their Eventide H8000 was cheaper than pedals?

You can get a whole bunch of tone in a set of pedals for $5,500, with enough change to buy another boutique amp, and not an AD/DA converter in sight, just that beautiful, organic analog signal as used by the vast majority of the greatest guitarists of all time.

If that really is the argument, then it's one of the most obvious no brainers of all time. Of course you would buy the pedals, and save yourself about $4,000 in the process!

Problem solved!



Cheers..................................wahwah

 

[wahwah]

Re: stomp box vs multi

I guess I should explain my dislike for pedals. Years ago I was a front of house engineer, I did that for a long time. Every ****ed guitarist and even some bassists had a pile of pedals that did nothing but bleed noise, get beer spilled on them and short out, have batteries die, cables disconnect, get lost on a dark stage, etc. Yet I don't remember any memorable tones from the pedal guys. The best sounds I heard were a guitar into a good amp with a good set of hands on the strings. Those guys used few effects and very lightly at that. I remember those guys..

There are always going to be players who don't know what they are doing. Similarly, there will be players who don't know what they are doing with a multi fx processor. What's on the floor isn't going to change that. So you worked with a bunch of guys who didn't know what they were doing. That doesn't mean that nobody knows what they're doing. The guys who do know what they are doing with good quality pedals include some of the greatest guitarists of all time. You probably didn't have the opportunity to mix those guys. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.



Cheers................................wahwah

 

[WhoFan]

Re: stomp box vs multi

when i first started gigging with some guys they used to tear a strip off me for using too much FX's all the time.... i have no idea why... Mostly they had issues with Delays... after tweeking the FX's and getting everything in order i didn't hear any complaining again.. But at the same time i was tap danceing on those pedals all night... on off on off on off.... i mostly had a Flanger and a Delay.... sometimes a chorus instead of teh Flanger..... i had to set up the delay so the repeats were not as loud and learn to use it in a better fashion...

 

[Mincer]

Re: stomp box vs multi

Are you sure? Do you think the original poster was asking about $5,500 worth of pedals Vs an Eventide H8000? And when various multi fx supporters have suggested that their option is cheaper, they were meaning that their Eventide H8000 was cheaper than pedals?

You can get a whole bunch of tone in a set of pedals for $5,500, with enough change to buy another boutique amp, and not an AD/DA converter in sight, just that beautiful, organic analog signal as used by the vast majority of the greatest guitarists of all time.

Cheers..................................wahwah

I am all for that beautiful organic signal, but those great guitarists already did it- I certainly don't want to recreate what they did- sometimes I might want a strange, artificial signal, or maybe I just strive for creating my own path. I understand not everybody shares that view, though.
I think I went with my setup because it allows me to mix in guitar synth with regular guitar and send it to a looping device.

I have tried many different multi's in my search. None do a good job of getting classic guitar tones in a live band. Why try to make a spoon act like a knife? On a recording, I have heard them work well. On the flip side, pedals are a bad choice for many of my needs.

 

[wahwah]

Re: stomp box vs multi

I am all for that beautiful organic signal, but those great guitarists already did it- I certainly don't want to recreate what they did- sometimes I might want a strange, artificial signal, or maybe I just strive for creating my own path. I understand not everybody shares that view, though.
I think I went with my setup because it allows me to mix in guitar synth with regular guitar and send it to a looping device.

I have tried many different multi's in my search. None do a good job of getting classic guitar tones in a live band. Why try to make a spoon act like a knife? On a recording, I have heard them work well. On the flip side, pedals are a bad choice for many of my needs.

From what I've heard of your playing and approach Mincer, your's is one of the best arguments for the application of multi fx processors, because you are deliberately striving to move away from what could be called "traditional" guitar tones. You are also exploring the possibilities of twisting the sonic realm of the guitar in the spirit of the likes of the players you have mentioned, including Belew and Fripp before you. Music will always need guys like you, and music technology supplies guys like you with the tools you may need for your exploration. I have deliberately kept my copy of NI's Guitar Rig 2, specifically for its effects, which supply the kind of out there stuff that might come in handy in a session. Its amp emulations are caca, in fact the amp sim on Logic 8 eats it alive, but some of those GR2 effects are wild and potentially usable.

When it comes to what constitutes 100% of my live work, your spoon and knife analogy comes into play. In my case, the analogy could be refined to "why use a plastic spoon, when you have a real spoon?" because it would be ridiculous for me to use something that was only trying to emulate pedals that I already use. I hardly need something to approximate a DC-2, DM-2 or vintage Phase 100, when those pedals are in front of me, sounding magnificent. It would seem that when it comes to "traditional" sounds, we agree. Likewise, your description of your specific application of multi fx makes perfect sense for your desired result. The original poster can decide from there which of these two approaches would best serve his needs.



Cheers....................................wahwah

 

[daemon barbeque]

Re: stomp box vs multi

I am not a fan of Multi FX like Zoom ,Line6 or ToneLab...
But there are others like a 2000$ Eventide ,TC G system , G Force...
And using them with a Midi Amp like Diezel VH4 or Engl SE....It's heaven

Steve Vai is well known for his Multi FX setup ,and i dig his tone...

The one and most important thing for me is the tap-dance on pedals.With a MIDI set-up ,one switch changes everything...Effects chain ,volume ,delay time ,and amp channel/settings.
Nothing can give more versatility as that...
Except the GIGRIG Midi 8 ofcourse...Combining an Eventide Eclipse with pedals could be much better that having just one option!

 

[James Rock]

Re: stomp box vs multi

To all those who said pedals, i should be noted that the argument is not 'Pedals Vs this;

Funny seeming the only multi effects pedal i've ever heard with my setup is the newish Zoom G1X. Wahs sound pretty crap delay is ok but only digital analog and tape are a little useless, ensemble was ok. Distortions made alot of noise but overall it is rather useful in its own way (other guitarist in my band got it for christmas). For now he can use the tuner a little eq boost and maybe reverb, delays and choruses and acoustic sim. So for its price it has a use seeming he (not having any pedals other then a behringer acoustic sim and this is better for that) usually plays amps clean. Not the best example but I've never heard a good digital distortion (mainly because most emulate pretty ordinary pedals anyway although I kinda liked the guv'nor emulation on this ZOOM!). So I can see where floor multi effects have their use but overall if you can buy single effects or rack it is gonna sound better (I'm not including digital things like line 6 pedals because they aren't essentially multi effects having different versions of one effects not lots of different effects).

 

[wahwah]

Re: stomp box vs multi

I kind of feel for you having to lug all that around.

Here's my complete touring rig...

It takes 60+ flights per year, fits neatly into the back of Tarago along with a Kurzweil and various other backline for road trips, and is guaranteed to be in every FOH mix!

You're dragging around a Road King, a cabinet, a rack case for the G-Major, and some kind of MIDI foot controller, as well as your guitar(s)? Don't feel bad for me!



Cheers...............................wahwah