Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

[Butch Snyder]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

I'm not a shredder; at least in my own opinion, but I love this thread. I love shred and always will. I also don't care that much for Zakk Wilde; but I respect the fact that he neither makes or takes excuses about his or others' playing...

 

[tc]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

i think any guitar works for shred. but the main advantage usually to me is better high fret access. i shred fine on my strat tho. I dont really like the wizard neck...

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

You can play any style on any guitar.

 

[barbarianbrute]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

sorry but i have to say B.S. to the whole shred guitar thing. i've owned several superstrats or "shred guitars," and none of them were any easier to shred on than my strats. there may actually be an advantage to shredding on a strat if you think about it.

i've noticed that notes on superstrats (jackson, ibanez, etc...) are pretty articulate. if you strike a note wrong, you're going to hear it. on a strat, if you strike a note wrong, you will likely get kind of a bum note. in a fast run i think it's harder to make out these mistakes on a strat than on a shred guitar.

i've seen people shred on accoustics and those huge-ass gibson guitars with the hollow bodies and headstocks as big as the guy's head. "shred guitars," to me for the most part, is just a myth. there's no advantage over a strat for shred really. in fact, i'd venture to say that strats were the original shred guitar and haven't been beaten yet.

 

[millsart]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

So why don't we see Vai and Satch et al, with some vintage strats ?

Why do they want those superstrats with custom shaved necks, jumbo frets, flat radius fingerboards, custom pickups and electronics, double locking floyds and so forth ?

I mean if its all just a myth and theres no advantage over a strat they'd be pretty foolish not to just rip it up on a 57 fender.


Personally I'd rather listen to Jimi play a vintage strat over any modern shredder any day, I don't even understand how people can listen to shredders for more than few minutes. Its cool to check out You Tube clips of some guys with amazing technical skills but taking an 8 hour road trip and listening to nothing but some guy flying up and down the neck ? That would be rough, but I'm just saying.........

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

Shredding is for the "Wow" factor, it's a matter of quality, not quantity.

When you play a kickarse song when everyone is digging it and you have a nice vibe then you shred away for a couple of turns and everyone goes wow, yeah (n stuff)

On the other hand ,when the entire song is nothing more than an excuse for you to perform fretboard acrobatics with some guys playing in the background like a circus orchestra... not cool, not in the least...

As for the articulate thing, well, yeah, it appears that SSs are more articulate, not a good thing if you screw up but if you're fast and accurate enough then you need a guitar that makes it easier for all the notes you play to be heard clearly. It's all relative...

 

[barbarianbrute]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

So why don't we see Vai and Satch et al, with some vintage strats ?

Why do they want those superstrats with custom shaved necks, jumbo frets, flat radius fingerboards, custom pickups and electronics, double locking floyds and so forth ?

I mean if its all just a myth and theres no advantage over a strat they'd be pretty foolish not to just rip it up on a 57 fender.


Personally I'd rather listen to Jimi play a vintage strat over any modern shredder any day, I don't even understand how people can listen to shredders for more than few minutes. Its cool to check out You Tube clips of some guys with amazing technical skills but taking an 8 hour road trip and listening to nothing but some guy flying up and down the neck ? That would be rough, but I'm just saying.........

i hope you're not including vai or satriani in your assessment of shredders. hendrix was overrated. i'm not saying he wasn't awesome, but claims that he was the greatest guitarist ever and all that jazz is just ignorant. if you think randy rhodes or eric johnson were just guitar wankers, then that's your opinion. shred has its place in any kind of music and it does sound good. i can understand if you directly name guys like rusty cooley, but to lump all shredders together as guitar wankers is foolish, IMO

 

[uOpt]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

So why don't we see Vai and Satch et al, with some vintage strats ?

Why do they want those superstrats with custom shaved necks, jumbo frets, flat radius fingerboards, custom pickups and electronics, double locking floyds and so forth ?

I mean if its all just a myth and theres no advantage over a strat they'd be pretty foolish not to just rip it up on a 57 fender.


Personally I'd rather listen to Jimi play a vintage strat over any modern shredder any day, I don't even understand how people can listen to shredders for more than few minutes. Its cool to check out You Tube clips of some guys with amazing technical skills but taking an 8 hour road trip and listening to nothing but some guy flying up and down the neck ? That would be rough, but I'm just saying.........

I kind of agree, I don't like Satriani much either. Players that I like such as Blackmore and Malmsteen use pretty standard Stratocasters with thickend sound (of course) and modified for playability, namely with scalloped necks. Neither of them base their guitars on real vintage instruments (e.g. no pre-CBS), but they just go through many standard production strats to find what they like for a base.

I rate these people as "string players" (equipped to drag the strings around with the left hand fingers), in line with "tone players" (e.g. Les Paul) and "notes players" (usually Superstrat).

Of course people like John Sykes are clearly between "notes players" and "shredders" and use Les Pauls, so exceptions to the rules are common.

Certainly Malmsteen alone proves that a standard Strat with set neck doesn't mean you can't play fast.

 

[millsart]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

I like that concept of "note players" and "shredders". Theres definatly a difference between someone like EJ who has some great chops and just someone playing arpeggio's up and down the neck at 100mph just because they can. EJ for example doesn't use technique just to show off he can do it, only when it fits.

Guy's like YM I can't help but think of as "wankers". Maybe a nice guy for all I know, and yes he's got some amazing chops, but its just so hard to take him seriously. He's like a bad paradoy of himself.

I had to cover a performance of his in town here maybe a year ago. Cool for a few minutes but then its like "hmmm, this is all he does" and it gets old quick.

If you didn't know who YM was and you saw a clip like this
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sj3ec2cCaJw
with open shirt, crazy faces to the crowd after every lick etc, you'd think it was some sort of parody wouldnt you ?

I liken it to DJ's who scratch on a turntable. Its pretty cool for a few minutes seeing all the crazy stuff, behind the back scratching, beat juggling, and whatever else, but after 10 minutes of hearing "wica wica wica squack squeal scratch" over some cheesy "funky drummer" loop, it makes you want to say "can you play some actual music again please" people want to dance and the small crowd that gathered to watch thins quickly thins as even they lose intrest. Just as during YM's set the beer line became more intresting for 95% of those in the crowd.


Jimi though really did have something special about him. Certainly not a shredder as that wasn't his thing but he had a certain "electricity" about him.

It always felt so on the raged edge, some organic and raw, like watching someone who you just know is a genius work.


Theres plenty of other amazing players with some really great stuff like EJ, Kenny Wayne, SRV etc being obvious, but they just don't match Jimi.

I've seen EJ, watching tons of clips, and he's great, but he's not Jimi. He's to refined and polished I guess. Same goes for guys like Vai, its so perfect its a little boring.


Listening to Satch you never once get the feeling the wheels are going to fall off at any moment and its going to be total choas. Jimi always felt right on the edge though. I never got the priviledge to see him live, but even on tape theres that energy.

I don't think I'm alone in feeling it either. Jimi's such a timeless legend for that very reason I think.

He had something that no one else who's come along has had. Theres no contemporaries to this day who've matched that.

I remember on the G3 tour last year watching them do a number of Hendrix covers and while good, they still felt like they were just going through the motions and couldn't resist throwing extra notes and squeals in just because they could.

It was watching some very technically skilled guitarist who were real showmen try to play rock and roll and just not get it.

Bottom line is you can rip off some multi octave 8 finger tapping, you can dress like a rock star, you can have a handle cut into your guitar, you can play any guitar made, be it a strat, LP, uberstrat etc, you can make all the painful looking faces you want, but none of it matters if people can't feel it. Music's got to hit you.

If you can listen/watch YM and it makes the hair on your arms sort of stand up, then thats awesome. For me it doesn't do it. Just doesn't hit me, I can't feel it. Its just a bunch of notes and noise.

Jimi I could connect with. Watching Tori Amos rip up the keyboard on Precious Things I feel. Its that knowing your witnessing something really amazing.


To sum up this rather long winded (windbag ?) and rather off topic post though, in the end its really "To Each His Own", we are all free to listen to whomever we want and if 50,000 people in the crowd argee or maybe just 5 people agree, it doesnt matter.

As I said, I think YM is so bad I can't listen to stuff like that for more than a few minutes. I'll take some Justine Timberlake track on a pop radio station over it honeslty. But thats just me.

I'm neither right nor wrong. Some may agree, some won't. Whats cool though is that when we are talking about our opinions we are always 100% correct though at least as far as ourselves are concerned.

Cheers

 

[Iron Horse]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

millsart, I like generally "old-school" shredders, like Blackmore, Uli Roth, Alvin Lee (Ten Years After anyone?), Randy Rhoads, and some "newer" like YJM (BUT ONLY the 1st album), Satch (he is great, but I can agree with you about that at Satch isn't really touching my soul. But it really doesn't always have to be about that, it can be about great tunes, melodic soloing, and other things. Satch is not nearly always going at 11/10, like Vai or YJM). EVH is ok too, but I really would like some less tapping.


But, millsart, I think you should listen to guys like Ritchie Blackmore, Randy Rhoads, Marty Friedman, Steve Morse and some others, who have good or amazing songs with solos that fit the songs brilliantly, and are delicate and use other notes than A harmonic minor.

E: And I think it's stupid to compare the guitars; there are some bad strat players, too, and many good superstrat-users. The guitar doesn't mean a thing as long as it fits the player, if Satch feels LIVE more comfy with the Ibanez, it's ok. It's also ok that he uses Strats and Teles A LOT in studio. Oh, and btw: when you think about Satch, Kirk Hammett, or Steve Vai, remember, that Satch tought Hammett just about everything, and Vai too. Although Vai has studied and learned guitar quite a lot himself, too.

 

[Metalblaze]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

Hey guys, once we're talking about shred, let me pull this a little further...check these:

Vinnie

Paul

I tried to find 2 demonstrations in the same spirit to see the difference between two great players.

I'm not an expert in musicology but I see Paul Gilbert using one or two approaches but do it insanely fast and on the other hand Vinnie Moore using countless approaches. I like Vinnie a little more myself. You can't make an opinion by only 2 videos of course, but you see 2 players improvising without any preparation.



Also check this after 1:25 when he starts to improvise. That's what I mean fast and inspiring at the same time.

Kiko Loureiro

 

[Hot _Grits]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

I like that concept of "note players" and "shredders".

Cool post. though when I mentioned 'note' platers as opposed to 'tone' players, what I meant was this:

'Note' players are the shredders. I derived the term from the saying "I hope he gets paid by the note". -Basically guys who have some conscious or subconscious desire to play a lot of notes. Shawn Lane once said that it has a lot to do with an individual's nervous system, and I tend to agree. The 'notes' player is more concerned with hot licks and the ability to display his abilities in the same way a peacock will display plumage.

Along the way, musical considerations such as whether lots of blazing is song-appropriate or whether the sound of their playability-oriented skinny guitar/uber gain rigs is actually palatable become secondary. To give you a high level example, Vinnie Moore recently noted that during his Shrapnel years, he never once discussed 'tone' when making his records.

Another trait that the 'notes' player will often exhibit is a desire towards precision. that's why you get shred kids who just don't get Jimi Hendrix. Rough edges aren't badges of honour to a 'notes' player.

Of course, the 'notes' player need not be a metal guy, though metal is a perfect genre, with it's distinct blend of desire for technical prowess, conservatism and disdain for hipster trends. You see 'notes' players playing jazz, fusion, and even blues (usually ex-metal players). It's an approach rather than a genre-specific thing.

'tone' players aren't necessarily gear obsessed blues dudes, as one may easily stereotype. To me, a 'tone' player can be found in any genre, with any level of chops. Basically they are players that have realised that music is above all a hearing art. So they play with constant awareness of how their playing fits in the wider picture of the music they are making, and how their guitars actually sound in a given context. Players who are musicians first, and sportsmen a distant fourth, if at all.

I've noted over the years that 'tone' players are usually more comfortable playing in several genres and with different gear, and more often than not have an amount of recording experience.

One other observation about shredders: they are more likely to want to argue something is better than another thing. It's as if they give out ribbons or something. Yet another sign that there's a bit more 'sports' than 'art' to the approach.

Of course, after reading all this, I'm sure no-one is going to put their hand up and say 'I'm a notes player'. The distinction is best made by others. But it's worth a few moment's honest thought: are you a 'notes' or a 'tone' player? -Personally, I like to think I started out 'notes' and after years of gigging, recording and (most important) listening ended up 'tone' , but there will always be a hint of 'notes' in the background. You can't completely hide your roots.

 

[Hot _Grits]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

Also check this after 1:25 when he starts to improvise. That's what I mean fast and inspiring at the same time.

Kiko Loureiro

Wow, fits the 'notes' player distinction perfectly. I mean, he sounds like he's plugged into a rockman!

-On the other hand, someone like Eric Johnson ('tone' player who can sure throw out some notes) would refuse to do any instructional video work without his proper rig at proper volume. Why? -because he nows it's all about the actual sound of what you play.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

sorry but i have to say B.S. to the whole shred guitar thing. i've owned several superstrats or "shred guitars," and none of them were any easier to shred on than my strats. there may actually be an advantage to shredding on a strat if you think about it.

i've noticed that notes on superstrats (jackson, ibanez, etc...) are pretty articulate. if you strike a note wrong, you're going to hear it. on a strat, if you strike a note wrong, you will likely get kind of a bum note. in a fast run i think it's harder to make out these mistakes on a strat than on a shred guitar.

i've seen people shred on accoustics and those huge-ass gibson guitars with the hollow bodies and headstocks as big as the guy's head. "shred guitars," to me for the most part, is just a myth. there's no advantage over a strat for shred really. in fact, i'd venture to say that strats were the original shred guitar and haven't been beaten yet.

now keep in mind that i have two Strats and a Gibson with really fat necks, but what sounds, looks, feels, and plays good to you might be 180 degrees from what sounds, looks, feels and plays good to somebody else. just because you can shred fine on a Strat doesn't mean somebody else doesn't find Strats to have thick cumbersome necks that are useless for shredding.

i know you're really into competition and this thing being better than that, but the fact of the matter is there are a ton of different kinds of guitars out there because there are a ton of different kinds of guitarists. an "improvement" to one person is a step in the wrong direction to somebody else. we've all got different guitar heros, different favorite songs, different sized hands and different playing techniques, so just keep playin what you like and don't stress about other people's preference or technique. Honestly, a million posts on a trillion message boards wouldn't make the Ibanez and Jackson fans out there trade in their thin-necked Floyd Rose'd superstrats for a Fender...and why should that bother you? More Fenders for you and me :smokin:

i mean we were in a restaurant, and you were eating a steak, and you saw me eating a chicken caesar salad, would you come over to my table and try to convince me that i should've gotten the same steak you did for this reason or that?

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

Cool post. though when I mentioned 'note' platers as opposed to 'tone' players, what I meant was this:

'Note' players are the shredders. I derived the term from the saying "I hope he gets paid by the note". -Basically guys who have some conscious or subconscious desire to play a lot of notes. Shawn Lane once said that it has a lot to do with an individual's nervous system, and I tend to agree. The 'notes' player is more concerned with hot licks and the ability to display his abilities in the same way a peacock will display plumage.

Along the way, musical considerations such as whether lots of blazing is song-appropriate or whether the sound of their playability-oriented skinny guitar/uber gain rigs is actually palatable become secondary. To give you a high level example, Vinnie Moore recently noted that during his Shrapnel years, he never once discussed 'tone' when making his records.

Another trait that the 'notes' player will often exhibit is a desire towards precision. that's why you get shred kids who just don't get Jimi Hendrix. Rough edges aren't badges of honour to a 'notes' player.

Of course, the 'notes' player need not be a metal guy, though metal is a perfect genre, with it's distinct blend of desire for technical prowess, conservatism and disdain for hipster trends. You see 'notes' players playing jazz, fusion, and even blues (usually ex-metal players). It's an approach rather than a genre-specific thing.

'tone' players aren't necessarily gear obsessed blues dudes, as one may easily stereotype. To me, a 'tone' player can be found in any genre, with any level of chops. Basically they are players that have realised that music is above all a hearing art. So they play with constant awareness of how their playing fits in the wider picture of the music they are making, and how their guitars actually sound in a given context. Players who are musicians first, and sportsmen a distant fourth, if at all.

I've noted over the years that 'tone' players are usually more comfortable playing in several genres and with different gear, and more often than not have an amount of recording experience.

One other observation about shredders: they are more likely to want to argue something is better than another thing. It's as if they give out ribbons or something. Yet another sign that there's a bit more 'sports' than 'art' to the approach.

Of course, after reading all this, I'm sure no-one is going to put their hand up and say 'I'm a notes player'. The distinction is best made by others. But it's worth a few moment's honest thought: are you a 'notes' or a 'tone' player? -Personally, I like to think I started out 'notes' and after years of gigging, recording and (most important) listening ended up 'tone' , but there will always be a hint of 'notes' in the background. You can't completely hide your roots.

once again, Hot Grits proves that he's the wisest dude on the whole forum.

 

[shredi]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

I used to shred alot,those 123234345 thing, arpeggios, string skipping, etc.. but i don't do that anymore.. it's kinda childish IMO.. ok, that's necessary to make good music and/or to get noticed by the crowd, but one should not base his music on those thing...
I'm a tone guitarist.. go to hell those note guitarists.. go surf youtube and you can tell their differences.. 'tone' guys will move their body to the music, have head-groove, hot licks, juicy riffs, natural techniques, and of course, they know good tone.. whilst the 'note' guys has exceptionally better precision and speed,but afterall, they all seems bland to me.. empty, soulless.. and they play like they've been shot in the head..

btw, millsart, i like yngwie, of course he's all about flash and bling-bling.. but strip down those excessive notes, and you will find the most monstrous-super organic guitarist alive on earth.. i think he's still a 'tone' guy..but with monstrous precision..

 

[Metalblaze]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

The melody and feel over quantity of notes is my style too. I can't do anything else anyway, haha, I can't use a single minor arpeggio in my solos! - only some fast pentatonic and some dorian licks. But even if I could, I'd try to use the lightning shredding as appropriately as I could to fit it in the whole picture of the song.

You may want to ask: "If you can't play top shred why you need a superstrat?" (Reasonable question). So, I need superstrats for their staccato and articulate rhythm sound more than for leads. I like the rhythm sound to be as articulate and cutting as it gets. (wow I got from shred to rhythm territory now, I stop here )

On the other hand it's on what someone has used to listen. A friend of mine told me that my solo on one of my tracks in soundclick is too show-off for the track and doesn't quite fit the slower rhythm (he only listens to alternative british rock). On the other hand I (as a classic metal/heavy rock guy) thought that it's just a simple pentatonic solo that gets a little more intense as it finishes, to give power to the song. So...

i mean we were in a restaurant, and you were eating a steak, and you saw me eating a chicken caesar salad, would you come over to my table and try to convince me that i should've gotten the same steak you did for this reason or that?

I liked that description with the steaks. LOL. It's like a scene taken from a comedy movie or something. I agree with it also.

 

[millsart]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

btw, millsart, i like yngwie, of course he's all about flash and bling-bling.. but strip down those excessive notes, and you will find the most monstrous-super organic guitarist alive on earth.. i think he's still a 'tone' guy..but with monstrous precision..

Suggest me a few choice tracks to check out as I'm intriguied about giving YM another try.

I saw his performance here in town, probably a year and a half ago and it all came off quite pretenious and boring. Just lots of very fast runs and the obligatory ego and pomp.

I'd certainly be willing to give him another try though if he's got some "tone guy" cuts that might be more up my alley.

 

[thucydides]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

Yea, Iron Horse, Ten Years After!

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Strats Are Just Fine For Shred

Notes vs Tone. And I though we weren't about distinctions.

I fully agree on the two approaches but totally shun the idea of only either being one or the other. You can be precise and 'notes' conscious without loosing track of the whole. You can both play sth full fast and precise and still have the tone quality.

I would mention a certain guitarist but I have already done this one too many a times in this thread already...