Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

danglybanger

danglybanger

ReelItInologist
Alright, I'm sorry if all this has been covered before, I actually know it has, but never in a way that i could actually understand... Sorry, I'm a bit slow. This was never adequately explained to me.

So basically, if a song is say, in the key of, say, C, then when you are soloing over it, you play notes from the C scale, and somehow the chord that is being played determines the mode you play?

(for a while I thought you basically played notes from the scale of whatever chord was being played at the moment, but this doesn't quite seem to be right either... though can this, in a "theoretical sense", be done?)

I've been experimenting around with when to change scales and modes etc. and I can't seem to figure out how to do it. Can anyone explain this to me in laymans terms?

thanks,
Slade
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

its simple really, you have a chord progression and say it was for example B, G#m7, F#, B, D#m7, Emaj7 you could play the B pentatonic major scale and any note you hit will not sound out of place ....i dunno if that answers your question?
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

HooDs said:
its simple really, you have a chord progression and say it was for example B, G#m7, F#, B, D#m7, Emaj7 you could play the B pentatonic major scale and any note you hit will not sound out of place ....i dunno if that answers your question?
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hmm... ok, I can understand that (kind of). do all the 7ths have something to do with playing pentatonic? Does this always hold true?

I guess what I'm trying to say is- why is all of the above true?

The thing is I've encountered songs where I've identified the key that (I think) it's played in, tried to play notes from that scale, and got something that sounded totally f*cked up... instinct was causing me to play notes outside of the scale that still managed to sound good somehow, and generally I came to the conclusion that whatever I was doing was wrong.

I'm sorry if this all makes very little sense... I guess you kind of need to talk to me like I'm a little kid or something:D Things that are obvious to others are hard for me to grasp (it's hard being me :smack:

slade
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

The chord being played does not always imply the mode to be played on that same chord.

Chords can be found in multiple modes. Therefore, a C chord can have multiple scales (modes) played with it. The type of chord DOES provide a hint as to what scale can be played on top of it. For example:

With a C chord, one can play the C Ionian scale (major), C Lydian (#4 note, in this case a F# note), and a C Mixolydian (b7 note, in this case being a Bb note). All three of these scales sound good on a 3-part C chord (C E G).

There is a fourth chord that is "outside the box to be played on the C chord and it is called "Lydian b7" scale. These are the notes: C, D, E, F#, G, A, Bb, C). This scale has multiple names but I call it what it is. This scale is very outside the box and jazz sounding SO as you get familiar with each scale, try jamming all of them!

Edit: playing the C Mixolydian scale on a C chord implys a bluesy sound because of the Bb note in that scale. Looking at a four-part C7 chord (C E G Bb), this scale implies a C7 sound because of the Bb note, even while playing just a regular C chord (C E G). This last part may sound confusing because of my typing skills.

I hope this helps!

Angelo.
 
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Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

...alright... so basically, I figure out what key the song is, and play in that... and I switch modes as necessary whenever the chord changes... sometimes but not all the time.

So is it basically just experimentation to figure out what scale and mode you should be playing? There's no real set formula or anything?

So I'm trying to figure out exactly what happens in the solo to the Eagles take it easy... This song is in C right? And when I try to jam over the chord progression, in C, it doesn't sound right. Should I just experiment around with modes? Does anyone know what mode I should be playing in and why?

thanks,
slade
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

Ok I will help you out.

All the modes are the major scale. Basically by starting on a new note and making that note the focal harmony you create a new sound.

eg these are the intervals of the major (Ionian) scale

T T S T T T S (Ionian)

all we do now to play the Dorian mode is play the exact same thing but starting on the second interval.

T S T T T S T (Dorian)

again do the exact same thing for the next mode move along one and use the next note as the starting and finishing point.

S T T T S T T (Phrygian)

they are all using the same notes, its the exact same thing, the notes are all played in the same order, the BIG difference you must understand is that by starting on the different interval and finishing on it you create a whole new sound/feel.

T T T S T T S (Lydian)

T T S T T S T (Mixolydian)

T S T T S T T (Aeolian) or minor scale

S T T S T T T (Locrian)

application of the modes is simple. match the mode to the context of which you are playing. That can be personal to each chord or by sticking to a mode for the whole progression if its in the same key.

When you hear a chord progression you can usually hear what type of sound it is and apply a mode on that basis. use your ears and experiment. When you hear a more exotic chord progression thats in A for example use all the modes of A until you find the one that fits.

Major and Minor are easy to spot, minor 7ths 6/13 4/11 chords all sound good with dorian mode.

dominant chords are often targeted with mixolydian for example.
 
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Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

not sure about that Eagles track and its mode but here is a hint about how to combine chords and scales:

1) Take a progression like this - ||:C |Am |Dm |G :||

2) The C Major scale looks like this (C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C)

3) Take the notes that are in each chord and you will find that they can be found in the C Major scale: C (C E G), Am (A C E), Dm (D F A) and G (G B D). Once you've memorized what notes are in each chord, try emphasizing those notes for those particular chords. This is called "outlining the chord." It's kind of like an arpeggio except you CAN play other notes in the scale as long as you outline the "chord tones."

In this way, your soloing will be much more focused than just meandering through the scale while a progression plays in the background.

I hope this helps, too! :beerchug:

Angelo.
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

Ok...

Gavantia, after staring at your post for about a half hour:D... there is no difference between playing modes and the major scale other than the note you start on, and that's basically up to me... It just takes a lot of listening and ear training?

Deftgala... alright, I think I'm starting to see a bit more into how the key is determined... the progression for the song I'm trying is G D C. So not all the notes from that are in C major anyways... so it's probably something else. So determine what key that is, then try sticking different modes in it for a different feel?

thanks for being patient with me you guys... I appreciate it:D

slade
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

Okay so here it is: you have the G, D and C chords. Because I know my scales, these chords imply the C Lydian Scale, better known as the G Major Scale. The only reason it is also called C Lydian is because of the theory mentioned in gavantia's post. The C Lydian is the 4th mode of the G maajor scale.

C Lydian are the notes C, D, E, F#, G, A, B, C. A D chord (D F# A) and a G chord (G B D) and C chord (C E G) have the major notes you will be using to solo with. Just correspond the notes with the same chords. THis is called "outlining the chord." Use all the other notes to add taste to your solo. Always think of phrases to make your solos sound interesting. It's alot like speaking to someone. You don't just want to ramble on because you will loose their interest. Think of some tasty licks you've heard on your favorite albums and mimic them. That is the easiest way to learn the basic musical vocabulary.

If you are playing for a girl, she'll have lots to say to you after you speak to her through your guitar :rolleyes:

I hope this helps, too... too! :D
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

Yes, the Major scale is every mode, understand that by shifting along an interval basically by starting on the next note of the scale and using that as home or the root note than the whole sound will change even though you are using exactly the same notes.

G D C none of these chords have extensions so basically G major or E minor will work fine.

G major and E minor are the same scale. They are relative. To work out the relative scales in any key you basically find out the major scale and count backwards 3 semitones.

eg G major 3 semitones is f # 1 f 2 E 3 semitones so that gives you E minor.


for that though G D C G major or E minor are perfect. To make it sexier you could use G mixolydian or E dorian or phrygian. Emphasize the chord notes the most and use the passing notes inbetween as colour.

G major chord is G B D

D major chord is D F# A

C major chord is C E G
 
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Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

Thanks for all that you guys:D managed to waste a day figuring all that out... Just gotta keep my ears open and remember those scales...

slade
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

I just have to give a +1 to the constant heckling of our comrad
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

SwedeNuck said:
I just have to give a +1 to the constant heckling of our comrad
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Hey, once I learn how to actually play the guitar, Hoobastank is going to ROCK YOUR JOCKS!!! Especially when I write some more insightful lyrics... I GOT A REASON FOR MEEE!!! TO CHANGE WHO I USED TO BEEEEE!!!

...and by the way...

... :fing25:

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
slade
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

Most beginners (most especially guitarists) fail to understand that you should be able to solo stricky using the chord tones of the current chord, before worrying about possible chord scales of the current chord.
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

danglybanger said:
... :fing25:

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
slade
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right back at ya!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

couldn't..................................


resist................................



temptation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

seafoamer said:
Most beginners (most especially guitarists) fail to understand that you should be able to solo stricky using the chord tones of the current chord, before worrying about possible chord scales of the current chord.
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so you mean soloing using the notes in a particular chord being played at the moment, rather than just floating around on the scale? Or something entirely different.

slade
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

danglybanger said:
so you mean soloing using the notes in a particular chord being played at the moment, rather than just floating around on the scale? Or something entirely different.

slade
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Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. If u come across an Eb7 chord, you should be able to, quickly, see the chord tones: Eb, G, Bb, Db all over the fretboard. If you can't see, & more importantly, HEAR, those chord tones, then whats the sense of busying yourself with more notes that you can't effectively see & hear.

Know ur chord tones: in ur head, in your ears, & on ur fretboard.
 
Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

Thats pushing it a bit if your a beginner learn the basics first. No one can expect a beginner to know their chord tones all over the fretboard, theres far too many chords for them to know and understand that logic is for advanced players.

Learn the theory of scales onto keys first.
 
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Re: Stuff about Scales, Keys, modes etc. that I don't get

gavantia said:
Thats pushing it a bit if your a beginner learn the basics first. No one can expect a beginner to know there chord tones all over the fretboard, theres far too many chords for them to know and understand that logic is for advanced players.

Learn the theory of scales onto keys first.
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Say what??? So instead of learning 3 or 4 notes that can be played over a chord, u think a beginner should instead focus on 7 notes. Stop it, please.

Plus, why does it exist so much in the 'guitar world', that it's way too much to expect someone to actually know the notes that make up the chords they're playing???
 
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