Suggestions for 4 conductor pickup wire

[GuitarDoc]

Agree with Beau and TCW...the stranded wires should not be tinned first when splicing 2 wires together. Twist the un-tinned wires tightly together first, then solder them. To keep that union as thin as possible, put the heat shrink on one of the wires first; twist them together keeping the wires parallel and in line with each other; solder the union; slip the heat shrink over the joint; heat the wrap to shrink it.

I have never, ever in over 60 years of soldering, accidentally pulled one of my correctly soldered joints apart.

You either need some serious soldering training or perhaps the old title of "bull in a China shop" is apropos.

 

[GuitarDoc]

If I twist bare wire without tinning it, it breaks because it is too fine, especially parallel wires that are not twisted together.

You realize that you don't have to use 3000 pounds per square inch force to twist them together, right?

Bending the wires flat does help, but it also creates connection issues if the wire needs to be twisted or routed at a sharp angle, such as, in this case, connecting back to a Triple Shot and compressing the wires into the pickup cavity under the pickup. Or, in the case of soldering a connection very close to the pickup base plate where a lot of strain relief is probably needed because this is where a lot of movement occurs.

Additionally, pressing the wires flat still creates some bulge underneath the shrink tubing. These bulges can catch on the inside of the guitar, requiring some mild to moderate force to pull them through the cavity.

This force would not harm an intact wire, but in my experience it can break spliced connections within the tubing.

I think you could also benefit from some guitar wiring techniques training. There is a pickup installation course offered on this website that might be of benefit to you. Go to the tab "Resources", then "Knowledge Base", then "Guitar Wiring Course".

If you have any questions after that, I'll be glad to help.

 

[Mincer]

Yeah, the wiring course is a really great resource for beginners and has some good reminders for people with a little more experience.

 

[Inflames626]

As an update to this, getting better on the Triple Shots. I can do them in my sleep now. The biggest issue was changing to a more appropriate conical tip for detailed work and switching out when it becomes too oxidized instead of trying to make it work as the tip degrades by holding it against the work surface longer.

For working with DPDT pots and killswitches, I prefer using vintage cloth wire with the wire removed from the cloth. I find the single wire underneath to be stronger and more flexible than stranded wire. And working with cloth wire is faster for me than stripping modern wire insulation.

Perhaps I can use the pushback wire as a connection between pieces of four conductor wire and I would have an easier time, but that would also mean more connections and things that could go wrong.

Issues with the four conductor wire were taken care of by a better quality wire stripper, but even that isn't foolproof. Sometimes the wire insulation will perforate, but when it is pulled away with the stripper sometimes wires will go with it, forcing yet another strip. I've learned to leave as much wire on as possible.

I check every connection now with a multimeter after soldering just to be safe and I have run into some issues with the Triple Shot.

On something with a very thin body like the Jackson RR3 I'm building if you leave a lot of wire lead in there and back the pickup down into the cavity eventually it will break the connection. It does not break at the Triple Shot soldering board but eventually the amount of space runs out and the connection loses conductivity somehow. My guess is this is near where the Triple Shot wire emerges from the ring and feeds through the pickup wire hole to head into the electronics cavity.

This was not an issue with the King V I built though so it must be guitar specific. I've tried resoldering a few times but no luck.

On the RR3 bridge pickup I have to boost the treble side a bit so that the PATB-1 remains connected. Backing the pickup far down into the cavity (so that the strings don't hit it when the Floyd is pulled back a major third) is desirable but I may have to compromise. I'm not willing to clip off any more wire lead than necessary due to my last experience and I want the four conductor wire to remain intact just in case I want to do away with the Triple Shots at some point.

The Custom Shop was kind enough to help me with putting wire lead back on to the PATB-1 and TB-10 and much quicker than I expected. I was thinking it would take 6 weeks--it was more like two. Thankfully, even though the four conductor wires broke off under the baseplate (long story) no coil rewinding was needed.

The pickups came back looking like they were brand new from the factory save the older PATB-1 that had the logo rubbed part way off due to age (maybe from the 80s-90s--it was a sticker label era one). And I now have my first MJ repaired set of pickups.

 

[GuitarDoc]

You have a couple problems that are keeping you from doing adequate wiring and soldering:
You are dogmatically clinging to misconceptions,
You are unwilling to learn the proper way of doing things.

Frank Zappa said, "Your mind is like a parachute...it only works when it is open".

 

[Inflames626]

I'm more inclined to think:
1) Small space and objects
2) Only 2 hands when 3 are needed
3) Unreliable work surface due to required awkward positioning at times due to 2 and 3

Changing the tip has made the biggest difference for me, as well as going to non-stranded wire. I went back to using a 40 watt iron although I prefer a 60 as I think it makes the connections faster.

StewMac Solder Monster helps with positioning but the arms could be longer and more flexible. They helped keep the RR3's control plate in place while I worked.

I found out a lock washer does work with a metal control plate, something that I did not think would matter because I thought the lock washer teeth would not bite into metal and keep everything in place.

RR3 works fine now save the neck pickup. I will have to go back in and see if a connection was broken while installing the control plate into the guitar. My guess is the white hot wire from the Triple Shot was not well soldered to one of the DPDT eyelets. I will probably have to pull it out and solder it parallel to the lug, something I don't like to do as it is easier to solder but also becomes detached when things are moved around (like when putting the plate back on the control cavity).

I think one of you guys suggested pigtails off the DPDT eyelets and I may try that with the cloth wire. It would then just be a matter of soldering the stranded wire to the cloth wire instead of trying to get the stranded wire into the eyelet, the wire fraying, and then shifting within the eyelet while trying to create a secure solder joint.

 

[GuitarDoc]

I'm more inclined to think:
Changing the tip has made the biggest difference for me, as well as going to non-stranded wire. I went back to using a 40 watt iron although I prefer a 60 as I think it makes the connections faster.

RR3 works fine now save the neck pickup. I will have to go back in and see if a connection was broken while installing the control plate into the guitar. My guess is the white hot wire from the Triple Shot was not well soldered to one of the DPDT eyelets. I will probably have to pull it out and solder it parallel to the lug, something I don't like to do as it is easier to solder but also becomes detached when things are moved around (like when putting the plate back on the control cavity).

I think one of you guys suggested pigtails off the DPDT eyelets and I may try that with the cloth wire. It would then just be a matter of soldering the stranded wire to the cloth wire instead of trying to get the stranded wire into the eyelet, the wire fraying, and then shifting within the eyelet while trying to create a secure solder joint.

I'm more inclined to think:
You REALLY need to learn how to properly solder and wire instrument controls. You are having problems that can ALWAYS be avoided if you'll just humble yourself and exercise the Frank Zappa principle. There is sooo much to learn. It's a shame to waste your learning potential on dogmatic thinking.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

A clean tip is always nice....

As the actress said to the bishop

You can buy those wadded up copper strip things that also serve as soldering iron stands or just clean the tips with a scotchbrite pad or even sandpaper, a metal file...

 

[Inflames626]

GuitarDoc , I don't consider the thing to be perfectly soldered unless I can suspend the control cavity by the wires and kick it downstairs without a single connection becoming broken. But it can't be that strong due to the nature of the thing--the delicacy of the wire, the smallness of the connections, and the frailty of solder.

Why we're still bothering with this antiquated method of installing electronics is beyond me, aside from a need for vintage purity from enthusiasts. It most likely could have been done ages ago with a plug in system, but we cling to it. Oh wait, EMG and active pickup versions have been doing that for some time now...

You have a tendency to have a deep seated desire to lord your knowledge over others. Yes, we know you have been doing this for decades. Yes, we know you know what you are doing.

We affirm you. You are just fine. There is no need to keep berating the point that you know more than everyone else here combined, most likely.

No, I still do not agree with all of the advice you have given.

For example, I prefer cloth pushback wire over modern wire. I've discovered this through about a dozen installs. Every time I do it I think, "It is so much easier to do this with cloth than to worry about stripping modern wire and some of it breaking off. And look how easy it is to wire the cloth wire through the DPDT switch. And it's so strong and it doesn't break." The only downside? The looks.

Besides, I chant "meat follows heat" every time when I'm working and it seems to help.

 

[Inflames626]

A clean tip is always nice....

As the actress said to the bishop

You can buy those wadded up copper strip things that also serve as soldering iron stands or just clean the tips with a scotchbrite pad or even sandpaper, a metal file...

I use a block of sal ammoniac. I also use a wet sponge.

I didn't know something rough could be used. I thought this would take the surface off the tip and make it so the solder wouldn't stick.

But for me, yeah, a pointy tip is the biggest help. Going to a higher wattage iron might also make things faster since you have such a small area making contact with the work surface.

I had to get rid of my 60 because I left the iron on too long while I was assembling a wire harness and the tip became fused with the iron.

When I ordered from Amazon they supposedly sent me the same iron but it was a 40 watt instead of a 60. I can make do with both but I think I like 60.

For all my inexperience and lack of practice I have never burned up a pot, so I think I am safe with 60.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

I use a file

 

[Inflames626]

This may be of help to all of you: a stripper for 20-30 awg wire. I use a traditional one that electricians use that has all the different tools on it, but it doesn't always strip small stranded wire cleanly. This just may do it. The only problem is it seems the square shape might make it a bit awkward to use in small spaces.

https://youtu.be/T6pwF_Jql_c?t=150

Also, I'm not claiming that what I'm doing is the definitive way to do things. I'm just saying it works for me. I appreciate all feedback.

 

[GuitarDoc]

GuitarDoc , I don't consider the thing to be perfectly soldered unless I can suspend the control cavity by the wires and kick it downstairs without a single connection becoming broken. But it can't be that strong due to the nature of the thing--the delicacy of the wire, the smallness of the connections, and the frailty of solder.

Why we're still bothering with this antiquated method of installing electronics is beyond me, aside from a need for vintage purity from enthusiasts. It most likely could have been done ages ago with a plug in system, but we cling to it. Oh wait, EMG and active pickup versions have been doing that for some time now...

You have a tendency to have a deep seated desire to lord your knowledge over others. Yes, we know you have been doing this for decades. Yes, we know you know what you are doing.

We affirm you. You are just fine. There is no need to keep berating the point that you know more than everyone else here combined, most likely.

No, I still do not agree with all of the advice you have given.

For example, I prefer cloth pushback wire over modern wire. I've discovered this through about a dozen installs. Every time I do it I think, "It is so much easier to do this with cloth than to worry about stripping modern wire and some of it breaking off. And look how easy it is to wire the cloth wire through the DPDT switch. And it's so strong and it doesn't break." The only downside? The looks.

Besides, I chant "meat follows heat" every time when I'm working and it seems to help.

You got me all wrong.
I'm not trying to force my opinions or way of doing things on others, I'm just trying to inform you (and others) of a better/different way of doing things. I'm not opposed to you doing things your way. What I have a problem with is your reluctance to learn so you can make better choices. You can choose to jump off the Empire State building for all I care. But I would still suggest that you take the elevator...because it IS a better way of doing things.

You don't have to "agree" with all of my advice, but it just might be advantageous for you to listen to it.

By the way, you can choose to kick your soldered controls down the stairs if you want, to test if the connections/wires/solder joints are strong enough for your guitar. Or you can hang it from the rafters and make a swing out of it if you like. But you don't need to build a tank...your guitar control cavity will never, NEVER, EVER be subjected to such forces.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Just FYI, the copper shavings is a better idea than the wet sponge to keep you soldering tip clean because the wet sponge cools down your tip too much.

Yes, using a 60 watt iron is better than a 40 watter and you will be less likely to cook your pots. The larger the wattage, the less likely of causing damage. (It's not the intensity of the heat that's important, it's how long that heat remains in contact with your pot that can cause the damage). With higher wattage irons you barely have to touch the pot to get the solder to flow properly. I forget but I think my solder station is 180 watts...I have never damaged a pot or any other component in any guitar.

 

[Mincer]

I have an old 40 watt iron that needs replacing. I will look into 60 watt ones.