Suggestions for electronics info for intermediates?

[zionstrat]

I've been wiring guitars for way more years than I want to think about, but I have a serious deficiency when it comes to electronics- I was taught to think of electrons as water in pipes. This works well most of the time, but sometimes it doesn't work at all.

I've read most of the 'dummies' level books and a few advanced electronics sites over the years and I seem to understand the basics but the advanced doesn't seem to address my questions- Here's a few examples of what I am trying to understand.

1. If you think of a guitar jack as the source and final destination of the electrons flowing through a guitar, I get the mental image of the string/pup interaction creates pressure that pushes the electrons down hill to ground. At the same time, it creates a vacuum at the coil input, so electrons are 'sucked in' from the tip of the jack. Following this thinking, I always imagine the jack tip as the + input (because electrons are flowing in) and ground as - output, but I know this terminology is wrong and I want to know why? (not really expecting an answer here and I expect this has something to do with AC vs DC, but it's just an example)

2. With a series/parallel coil blender, electrons are flowing in combinations of series and parallel at the same time, but I can't imagine this happening with water... ie if you had a long central pipe that had multiple compartments (ie series) the resistance would cause the water to back up. And if you had 2 short pipes also connected to the source (parallel pups) at the same time, I imagine most of the water would take the path of least resistance and pour out the short pipes and the central pipe (series) would have almost no flow.

Again, this might be AC vs DC confusion, but does anyone know of an online site that addresses this level of thinking?

Thanks for reading a long post-
Zstrat

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Suggestions for electronics info for intermediates?

So. I think you are confusing a few things. The water analogy is used more so to illustrate the flow of charge (current) be it electrons, Holes, Ions or whatever. It's used as a visual analogy because the flow of charge and the flow of water behave very similarly when illustrated this way. a quick example would be applying the water analogy to resistance. If you imagine that resistance is analogous to a pipe, you can consider a scenario where there is a reservoir of water pushing up against a wall with one single pipe letting it out into a street. if that pipe happened to only be 1/4 inch in diameter, hardly any water would flow out of it, and it would be said that there would be a large resistance to the flow of water on the other side of the wall. If that same pipe happened to be 4 feet in diameter, than a lot more water would be allowed through at any given time, thus that pipe is exhibiting a lower resistance to the water trying to push through. So that is one example of how that specific analogy is used.

1.What you are addressing with your first question has more to do with the actual direction of the flow of charge, or conventional current versus electron flow. you have the two tied together in a confusing knot. initially electrons were believe to hold a positive charge, and thus flow from positive to negative. you can thank ben franklin for that. The reality is that all electrons actually hold a negative charge and flow in the opposite direction, from negative to positive. The key here is to just pick one, because neither will hinder your understanding of a circuit so long as you just pick one and stick to it. One thing you are confusing however is the flow of charge with output voltage. The two are related but are very different. I would suggest reading up on the difference.

2.) you are over thinking it, and applying the basics of current flow, instead of viewing each coil as a self producing voltage source.

I'm not sure I answered any of your questions.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Suggestions for electronics info for intermediates?

I'm not sure I answered any of your questions.

Thanks Joey-
On the positive side, you do seem to understand my confusion and I will look up flow of charge vs. output voltage to see if that helps.

On the series/parallel blender are you saying that the 'pressure' model isn't relevant because the coils are generating ac, so the charge keeps changing, so there is no pressure built up? If that is true, would the pressure challenge that I am imagining actually occur in a DC environment since it's not fluctuating?

I'm probably still way off base and not sure that any of this matters -the 'trace the flow approach' has never failed for guitar wiring, but I do feel like I'm at a road block that may or may not be relevant.

And thanks in advance for any online resources that might help-

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Suggestions for electronics info for intermediates?

Thanks Joey-
On the positive side, you do seem to understand my confusion and I will look up flow of charge vs. output voltage to see if that helps.

On the series/parallel blender are you saying that the 'pressure' model isn't relevant because the coils are generating ac, so the charge keeps changing, so there is no pressure built up? If that is true, would the pressure challenge that I am imagining actually occur in a DC environment since it's not fluctuating?

I'm probably still way off base and not sure that any of this matters -the 'trace the flow approach' has never failed for guitar wiring, but I do feel like I'm at a road block that may or may not be relevant.

And thanks in advance for any online resources that might help-

The trace flow approach is only really helpful in this situation when trying to trouble shoot faulty wiring, it isn't a relevant or good model by itself for understanding the small signal function in this case. Can you point me to the exact wiring diagram you are referencing? Maybe we can go through it.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Suggestions for electronics info for intermediates?

Thanks Joey... I do well integrating designs and coming up with new ideas, but language gets in my way when I try to describe new ideas... The positive input example is a good example...

Wound a coaxe pup earlier this year and tried to get input from an EE buddy. That term and many others made it a painful discussion with multiple diagrams.

Not that big a deal, but would like to expand vocabulary and probably have more bad analogies that need to die

Tell you what, I may take you up on your translation skills the next time I get in over my head[emoji41]

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[Joey Voltage]

Re: Suggestions for electronics info for intermediates?

Well I do think your biggest issue and where most of your confusion lies, is that you are viewing the pickups more like a resistor. In that case you would be correct to think that, and it is one of the reasons that dcr indeed actually has a negative impact on output.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Suggestions for electronics info for intermediates?

Maybe I need to return to basics because I thought dcr was only used to measure wire lengh in pups or speaker or resister values.

So since we're digging in, why is the jack tip connection called the positive output? Is it because Franklin got neg and positive inverted?

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[Joey Voltage]

Re: Suggestions for electronics info for intermediates?

Maybe I need to return to basics because I thought dcr was only used to measure wire lengh in pups or speaker or resister values.

So since we're digging in, why is the jack tip connection called the positive output? Is it because Franklin got neg and positive inverted?

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It's more so your small signal analysis is making that correlation.

No it's more euphemism, the jack tip is labeled as "positive" or "hot" mostly because that's the port that the expected signal output will be connected to and generated across with respect to the other, while the other is usually tied to the other half or return portion. For an AC signal it will actually swing in both polarities. It's often the case that this will be tied to a reference potential or ground, but it doesn't have to be. Which is which is really pretty irrelevant too, but it's best to keep some sort of agreed upon protocol.

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: Suggestions for electronics info for intermediates?

To understand basic circuit theory you need to know things like:
1) Ohms law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law
2) Kirchhoff circuit laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff's_circuit_laws

If you see a first year electrical engineering text, its full of rules about analysing simple circuits with voltage sources, currents sources and resistances.

There isn't much difference between the analysis of DC circuits and steady state AC circuits. However its helpful to understand the difference between "Resistance" and "Electrical Impedance".

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Suggestions for electronics info for intermediates?

I agree100%. And it might be much easier to answer questions you have from what you've read. I have no problem trying to answer your questions to the best of my understanding.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Suggestions for electronics info for intermediates?

To understand basic circuit theory you need to know things like:
1) Ohms law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law
2) Kirchhoff circuit laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff's_circuit_laws

If you see a first year electrical engineering text, its full of rules about analysing simple circuits with voltage sources, currents sources and resistances.

There isn't much difference between the analysis of DC circuits and steady state AC circuits. However its helpful to understand the difference between "Resistance" and "Electrical Impedance".

Thanks Teleplayer... I know ohms law rather well but Kirchoff is all new. Looking forward to reading.

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[Joey Voltage]

Re: Suggestions for electronics info for intermediates?

Kirchhoff' law is basically a means of obtaining the common denominator by breaking down and simplifying the signal path. It's instrumental in understanding what AC "see's"

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Suggestions for electronics info for intermediates?

Kirchhoff' law is basically a means of obtaining the common denominator by breaking down and simplifying the signal path. It's instrumental in understanding what AC "see's"

Sounds like a great place to start!

Thanks all!