Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

[Yngwiestein]

For shreddy stuff I'm like everyone else a lot of times, just droning power chords during solo parts. I've been working w Rusty Cooley on this but that dude is so freaking good he goes above my head sometimes. I'm like that though. Sometimes I just can't wrap my head around something and then it suddenly hits me one day.

So suggestions for improving my backing for solos. What do you do to get out of the power chord rut?

 

[jimmy]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

I listen to Allan Holdsworth and stop stealing Jimmy's avatars. That gets me out of a rut.

 

[Yngwiestein]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

I listen to Allan Holdsworth and stop stealing Jimmy's avatars. That gets me out of a rut.

Jimmy who? Allan Holdsworth is out of this world. I don't want to spend MORE years practicing LOL!

 

[jimmy]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

Then stop posting so much and start practicing. I think that if you spent half as much time practicing as you spent posting, you'd make less threads about stuff like this.

 

[Yngwiestein]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

Then stop posting so much and start practicing. I think that if you spent half as much time practicing as you spent posting, you'd make less threads about stuff like this.

LOL! That said from a dude who doesn't know me! Quit being a d!^K Jimmy!

 

[daemon barbeque]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

I think you didn't have "rythm" as technique.
You still think rythm as "backing" to your solos.
But it's not!
Actually ,the rythm guitar is the song structure ,and Solos are the icing.
If you want to be more creative ,you have to begin with rythm first ,than write the solos on it!

Well.
1)For rythm playing ,the picking hand is more important one.

2)Rythm is first in your head. Learned legato runs can't save your butt here

3)If you can arpeggiate any chord (I know you can) ,there is a strong possibility that you can write great rythm tracks without chords.

4)Palm muting is your best friend.Your second best friend is changing the picking position Vertically and horizontally ,the 3. best friend is a metronome!!!

5)Turn your "gain" back a bit ,and try to feel the punch and chunck ,instead of "lead" structure.Since rythm begins with "hitts"..Tone is the second part od the picture.But you have to get the "hit" part first.

6)Play with a drummer for hours.At the point you and him have great time (With playing music ofcourse) ,you will be good at rythm ,and he will be a master LOL

7)Everything above is my humble opinion ,and I can assure you that I am more a rythm player ,and a drummer.

 

[Yngwiestein]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

I think you didn't have "rythm" as technique.
You still think rythm as "backing" to your solos.
But it's not!
Actually ,the rythm guitar is the song structure ,and Solos are the icing.
If you want to be more creative ,you have to begin with rythm first ,than write the solos on it!

Well.
1)For rythm playing ,the picking hand is more important one.

2)Rythm is first in your head. Learned legato runs can't save your butt here

3)If you can arpeggiate any chord (I know you can) ,there is a strong possibility that you can write great rythm tracks without chords.

4)Palm muting is your best friend.Your second best friend is changing the picking position Vertically and horizontally ,the 3. best friend is a metronome!!!

5)Turn your "gain" back a bit ,and try to feel the punch and chunck ,instead of "lead" structure.Since rythm begins with "hitts"..Tone is the second part od the picture.But you have to get the "hit" part first.

6)Play with a drummer for hours.At the point you and him have great time (With playing music ofcourse) ,you will be good at rythm ,and he will be a master LOL

7)Everything above is my humble opinion ,and I can assure you that I am more a rythm player ,and a drummer.

That's not how I approach songwriting though. When I come up with a nice hook I branch out from there. Then the solo just kind of pops up in my head if that's where the song is headed so then I make a backing for the solo part using some spinoff of the basic rhythm. Works out ok especially because I can throw in a key change and totally change the solo.

Many great players use droning notes for soloing. I like your idea of arpegiating the chords. I should do that more & maybe add 7th or 9ths and that sort of thing.

 

[Blue_Fingers_Jay]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

Great post Daemon I couldn't agree more.

Yngwiestein the style of music I play is very different, but still here are some tips.
Try and make it simple first, don't use the tone you use for lead, use something that sounds fuller and fatter, use it to make a steady beat like a cross between a bass player and a drummer. Just like Daemon said a crunchy sound and palm mutting are great friends.

Use that simple rythm as a metronome nest time you solo, the rest comes naturally, you'll add a note here a note there, make it faster or slower, use dynamics make the rythm notes have more sustain before you kick in the solo.

Doesn't matter how you approach songwriting a good rythm can make a mediocre solo excellent but a great solo will never make a bad rythm playing sound good.

Music is rythm, if it doesn't have a thump that makes your feet tap, it won't do much/anything for ALOT of people.

 

[Imp]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

have the bassist/drummer go into a triplet rhythm! my band seems to do it every time and it always works.. although it's my fault..

seriously if the guitarist's sound takes on a less thick place in the band (i.e. a solo) simply compensate - how you do it is up to you. i (playing bass) take it as an opportunity to team up with the drummer and get some heads nodding..

others use power chords, some even use synths (if they're already present).. part of gelling with a band is being able to fill in each other's blanks without sounding out of place.

 

[daemon barbeque]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

Well than your songs will never will be complete bro!
Because the rythm is the structure.
Many music types are named with their actual rythm patterns.
Like Funk,Blues etc.All of them have their signature rythm patterns.Without them ,they won't be what they are.

Your songwriting is actually a "solo" writing with some backing.You cannot call it a song till it lives and breathes ,than explodes with the Solo.

As we both love Malmsteen ,I can give you a good example.

We take the song Disciples of Hell.
Check the whole rythm on that song ,and try to listen to it without the rythm.It won't make any sense to you anymore.It's one of the "huge" malmsteen songs ,and the rythm part is extraordinary ,amazing and strong! He just "makes" the song with the rythm there.He changes the "picking" allmost on every passage ,and that makes the song a song.

Or check his song "viking massacre" with Derek Sherinian.
And you will get what I am talking about.
BFJ said right. Music is rythm ,and Malmsteen knows it really well.

A guitar player is not complete without mastering the rythm ,since it's the %95 of a song!

 

[Yngwiestein]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

Well than your songs will never will be complete bro!
Because the rythm is the structure.
Many music types are named with their actual rythm patterns.
Like Funk,Blues etc.All of them have their signature rythm patterns.Without them ,they won't be what they are.

Your songwriting is actually a "solo" writing with some backing.You cannot call it a song till it lives and breathes ,than explodes with the Solo.

As we both love Malmsteen ,I can give you a good example.

We take the song Disciples of Hell.
Check the whole rythm on that song ,and try to listen to it without the rythm.It won't make any sense to you anymore.It's one of the "huge" malmsteen songs ,and the rythm part is extraordinary ,amazing and strong! He just "makes" the song with the rythm there.He changes the "picking" allmost on every passage ,and that makes the song a song.

Or check his song "viking massacre" with Derek Sherinian.
And you will get what I am talking about.
BFJ said right. Music is rythm ,and Malmsteen knows it really well.

A guitar player is not complete without mastering the rythm ,since it's the %95 of a song!

I get what you're saying bro and thanks a lot for explaining. I think we're missing each other on the point though. I don't write songs with solos in mind.

I start with something I call a "hook" which is a catchy rhythm or intro to a song.

Then I develop a few variations from that and usually some cool chords or patterns come out of it.

Pretty soon I got a rhythm with different parts going.

Later into the rhythm I might inject a few lead lines if it is something that comes to me as a result of the rhythm.

If in my rhythm a solo comes to mind then I fabricate the solo in parts and put it together.

It's easy enough to fill the rhythm parts because it just comes naturally.

See bro the problem I'm having is I'm starting to feel like I'm just manufacturing rhythms.

But back the the songwriting point. I think there are basically two kinds of songwriters. Rhythm writers and melody writers. Neither is THE right way to do it.

So I might be a melody writer most of the time or if I feel a rhythm in my head I start with that.

So now the problem I got is making more texture in the rhythm without making it too difficult to solo over. If the rhythm is too catchy during the leads it sounds incongruous.

You know what I'm talking about? So like it's easy to go like 1 & 2 &3 & 4 with typical I V VI chords. A little key change, a turnaround etc. and then it's pretty easy to solo on. So my difficulty is making more interesting rhythms but not to distract the melody.

I see where you are coming from. It makes perfect sense and I agree on all points except that my style of songwriting is by melody a lot of time.

 

[marvar]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

to learn how rhythm and solos, and rhythmic solos work together just listen to Mike Campbell/Tom Petty

 

[Yngwiestein]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

to learn how rhythm and solos, and rhythmic solos work together just listen to Mike Campbell/Tom Petty

Bro I love Tom Petty music. I have to pull out the CDs now! Thanks.

 

[rashayritto]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

for solo sections i just lay down a really epic sounding rhythm that sounds like it could repeat forever. no better base for a solo than that man

 

[anewdefguitarist]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

"So I might be a melody writer most of the time or if I feel a rhythm in my head I start with that."


whats wrong with that dude? my approach and mindset and attitude towards solos is that it should TOTALLY serve the song....if its more of a tastey fill, then make it a tastey fill....if its an epic solo that the song needs, give it a mother f*ckin lord of the-terminator-never ending story-star wars mother f*ckin saga!! kiss your own sister!! (star wars joke.....) anyway, go with it....


sometimes, we do this when we write (my band i mean) we got 4 people....we come to a point where we dont know what to do and we go "ok, we play up to that point....when we get there, everybody stops EXCEPT for person A...you play whatever comes to mind....and we do that right down the line. after you establish that, solo over it. if you feel even then like your rythms are being "overkill" or "repetative" ask someone outside the circle...are you in an original band that plays out a lot? have a good regular fan come to a practice and ask them what they think...afterall, they hear your music from the outside looking in. and they're the ones you're probably trying to convey your message to. say hey dude, what do you think about this solo....or what do you think about his part here....is it lacking anything? always ask if its lacking, that way if they agree, they will come out and tell you because they're under the impression that YOU think its lacking, and they feel like they wont hurt your feelings....if its not lacking, they'll look at you like there are d*cks growing our of your ears and be like no dude, dont touch that sh*t!!

hopefully i made some sense...

 

[daemon barbeque]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

Oh I understand it better now.
Well ,the only way to get it is being a Rythm player-agood one.

I can recommend some good rythm players ,who "fills" the backround on a solo incredibly.
Start with
Megadeth ...Rust In Peace
Anthrax...Among The Living
Death...Symbolic.
Malmsteen...Marching Out

 

[bigheadood]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

I tend to simplify the rhythm under the solo, to keep from cludging up the mix. I often omit parts of chords and reduce the pick attack. The rhythm is underlying, but still dominates the structure and feel of the song. This works for any type of music. I use it in blues, and metal, and I'd probably use it in country too.

+1 on Megadeth
To work on Metal rhythm chops, buy "Something Wicked This Way Comes" by Iced Earth.
This will probably make your arm fall off. Mine still does when I try to play some of the songs.

 

[Ocifer]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

+1 to the people who stressed the importance of rhythm.

Playing lead is fun and flashy and impressive,and it takes dedication, but never forget to work on your rhythm playing. If you're playing unaccompanied, one acoustic or electric guitar is going to need to fill out the bottom and constantly elaborate a rhythm. Otherwise, you'll find that many people will lose attention very quickly.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

Watch Paul Gilbert's Rhythm Lesson video on Youtube. I learned a lot just from that.

Linky

 

[Yngwiestein]

Re: Suggestions For Rhythms Behind Solos

Fantastic suggestions from everyone! Great video too Erik. Got some homework to do bros.