Swiss Army-Bass

[uOpt]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

can a J bass mimic a P bass? I know the P pickups have that off set setup, but i wanted to know if the magnetic field if the J pup could come close to a P sound.

No, and even if they did you would get screwed by the pickup position.

Pickup position really matter. Guitarists sometimes forget since we have useful default positions that fit almost all pickups.

 

[BlueTalon]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

bartolini make a great J/J pickup set. Both are actually split/humcancelling p bass style pickups inside a j bass footprint. Great sounding pups.

You mean in-line split-coils J pickups. Those are made by numerous companies -- Bartolini, Delano, Fralin, Nordstrand, Fender, and probably a lot more. My first experience with them is a set of Fender pickups, and I absolutely love them. (I also have a Bartolini, but it hasn't been swapped into anything yet.)

 

[0v3nm4n]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

I can't stand noise at all. what about those fender aerodyne basses? they make a left handed P/J model that I could probably drop stacks into

 

[ginormous]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

I can't stand noise at all. what about those fender aerodyne basses? they make a left handed P/J model that I could probably drop stacks into

There's gonna be noise in any passive setup; one can get a hot set of pickups, shield the wire harness and control cavity for RFI and hum, boost with a preamp and hope for the best.

Actives are another animal entirely; I defer to those with more experience.

I've only played the Aerodynes once or twice; the factory pups didn't impress me. The neck pickup didn't sound enough like a "real" Precision for me, and likewise for the bridge J. A swap would be my first move.

 

[BlueTalon]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

There's gonna be noise in any passive setup; one can get a hot set of pickups, shield the wire harness and control cavity for RFI and hum, boost with a preamp and hope for the best.

Actives are another animal entirely; I defer to those with more experience.

This makes no sense at all to me. There is going to be noise in any passive setup (which I strongly disagree with), so among other things add a preamp? And you defer to those with more experience re: actives? You just told him to make it active!

There is going to be noise in any passive setup? Meaning every passive setup? No. I agree with you about the shielding, but a good passive humbucking pickup or set of pickups will not add noise. Most of my basses are passive and have no noise issues. As a matter of fact, the only basses I ever have noise issues with have preamps on them.


Maybe you forgot to add "single coil" in your post? That would make more sense to me.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

There's gonna be noise in any passive setup;

Wat?

 

[0v3nm4n]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

I do like the sound of a passive bass boosted with an on-board pre. The meaty sound it produces is something that always gives me an E-chord face.

there's also this

http://www.ilitchelectronics.com/pgncs-jbv/

 

[ginormous]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

This makes no sense at all to me. There is going to be noise in any passive setup (which I strongly disagree with), so among other things add a preamp? And you defer to those with more experience re: actives? You just told him to make it active!

There is going to be noise in any passive setup? Meaning every passive setup? No. I agree with you about the shielding, but a good passive humbucking pickup or set of pickups will not add noise. Most of my basses are passive and have no noise issues. As a matter of fact, the only basses I ever have noise issues with have preamps on them.


Maybe you forgot to add "single coil" in your post? That would make more sense to me.

Yes, you're right. I should have been more specific. Allow me to clarify: In the abstract, everything has a noise floor. Even in an anechoic chamber, the sound of a heartbeat, and the blood rushing through ones' ears, could be heard.

Many of the popular bass pickups (Rickenbacker 4000 series, original Precision, split-coil Precision and Jazz, to name a few) are in fact single coil. The split-coil P is technically 2 single coils, wired in series. By themselves, they can be noisy at times -- subject to RFI (radio frequency interference), power line buzz (from florescent or neon lights, for example), microphonics due to loose winding, and so on. An off-the-shelf electric bass with factory passive SC pickups can be something of a coin flip in terms of sound or performance; that's one of the reasons why Seymour Duncan (the company) exists. Hotter pickup output increases the S/N ratio, of course. Shielding helps with the RFI, good grounding and braided signal wire wrap will reduce hum and buzz. Even after all that, however, there will be a very slight hiss. This is no big deal on stage. The amp is usually noisier than that, the HVAC in the room will drown that out, and when the crowd shows up they don't care anyway, as long as they can hear you. However, a really anal retentive studio engineer (IMO, part of the job description) will noise gate you just on general principle, for that little tiny bit of hiss.

The humbucker was developed to combat single coil's inherent deficiencies, and it did so successfully. However, it's not the same sound as a single coil.

I don't dispute that you've got a good, quiet sound. I'm glad, because I had to jump through some hoops to get the sounds I needed from both my 5-string P and my Jazz. Pup swaps, braided wire wraps, copper foil lining the body cavities, upgrading the volume and tone pots, cap swaps on the tone controls... my experience with single coil setups has been arduous but worthwhile.

Again, you're right, so again let me apologize: a preamp by itself will only boost the signal, so garbage in, garbage out. If it's noisy to start with, it'll only be noisy and loud afterwards. It was my (mis-)understanding that active pickups were more for low-impedance matching.

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

I have wanted to build a frankenbass like this. Stacked Jazz Bridge, P-bass and EBO neck.

View attachment 43494

 

[BlueTalon]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

I had an opportunity to step into Hewlett Packard's anechoic chamber once, that was a bizarre experience (for someone who's not used to it). And I agree with you about the varying levels of sound. There have to be some assumed definitions when talking about stuff like this, otherwise every statement would require an explanation or elaboration, and the conversation would bog down. But sometimes it's necessary to explain.

Assuming there's nothing wrong with it, you can turn on just about any solid state amp with nothing plugged into it in a normal room and not hear it. Crank that same amp up full, and you might be able to hear the fact that it's on. That, or something close to it, is about my threshold for noise tolerance.

In my experience with my own basses, I have had great luck with getting good sound from humbuckers. I have heard many people say the same sorts of things you say about single coil pickups, so I have to assume there's something to it, but honestly I don't really understand it because I have never experienced any tonal limitations with humbuckers in general. It would be one thing if it was just me and my ears, but that's also the consistent feedback I've received from other musicians.

Regarding "humbuckers" -- I believe split single coil pickups belong in that category. You said "split-coil P is technically 2 single coils, wired in series." That's technically true of humbuckers, too (when they're wired in series). The difference is that split single coils sense string vibration at one point on the string instead of two, but they are no less humbucking than twin-coil humbuckers.

So here's a question for you. Do you consider split-single-coil pickups to be single coil pickups? Or humbuckers? Or both?

 

[ginormous]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

Regarding "humbuckers" -- I believe split single coil pickups belong in that category. You said "split-coil P is technically 2 single coils, wired in series." That's technically true of humbuckers, too (when they're wired in series). The difference is that split single coils sense string vibration at one point on the string instead of two, but they are no less humbucking than twin-coil humbuckers.

So here's a question for you. Do you consider split-single-coil pickups to be single coil pickups? Or humbuckers? Or both?

I'd say both, but also neither. They're two single coils wired in series, one with reverse winding and polarity. By electronic definition, that's a hummer.

However, the coils are housed in different cases, and one is shifted to the side and slightly offset, allowing it to focus on a different pair of strings.
This offset gives it a different sound than a straight hummer. I'm sure most bassists can identify a P just by listening. I give it its' own category.
It defined the instrument category "electric bass", and everything that came after has been compared to and measured against it, including the Jazz.

This allows me to steer back to the original topic: Is it a Swiss Army bass?
By nature of its' longevity, its' incorporation into so many different styles of music, I'd give the P the nod.

It's not for everyone (what instrument could ever be?), but a lot of people have come across it, and they won't be freaked out if you bring it to any session or gig.
Country, metal, R&B, blues, jazz, or anything else you could name, it's been there, done that.
Ironically, some people are so tired of seeing and hearing it, they take a different approach, choosing something that doesn't sound like that ubiquitous bouncing boom.

This is why I maintain the physical nature of the instrument is as important as the sound, if not more so.
Whatever one plays, it must be comfortable in your hands, and around your neck.
When you're feeling good playing bass, you can make any sound imaginable.

 

[astrozombie]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

The older USA Fender Stu Hamm.

yes.

 

[BlueTalon]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

I'd say both, but also neither. They're two single coils wired in series, one with reverse winding and polarity. By electronic definition, that's a hummer.

However, the coils are housed in different cases, and one is shifted to the side and slightly offset, allowing it to focus on a different pair of strings.
This offset gives it a different sound than a straight hummer. I'm sure most bassists can identify a P just by listening. I give it its' own category.
It defined the instrument category "electric bass", and everything that came after has been compared to and measured against it, including the Jazz.

The P that defined electric bass didn't have the split-coil pickup on it, it had the old straight single-coil. The split-P was a later development, part of the greater evolution of pickup technology. The offset only allowed each half to focus on its own pair of strings when the coils were so big they couldn't fit them together in line. That issue has long been solved.

This allows me to steer back to the original topic: Is it a Swiss Army bass?
By nature of its' longevity, its' incorporation into so many different styles of music, I'd give the P the nod.

It's not even close to being a Swiss Army bass. It's more like a Buck Knife bass. It has one blade, that is very useful in a lot of different applications. But there's no corkscrew, no bottle opener, no can opener, no file, no scissors, no toothpick, nothing. Just the one blade. Which is great if all you need is a blade. But it is inadequate in any situation requiring something different. A Swiss Army Knife covers you when you just need a blade, but it also covers you when you need something different. That's one of the defining characteristics of a Swiss Army Knife.

I believe a Swiss Army bass has to have at least two pickups. That's the only way to get the sonic range that gives you a "corkscrew" or "toothpick" sound when you need it.

This is why I maintain the physical nature of the instrument is as important as the sound, if not more so.
Whatever one plays, it must be comfortable in your hands, and around your neck.
When you're feeling good playing bass, you can make any sound imaginable.

With the exception of the last bit, I completely agree with this. (The tools one is using limits the "any sound imaginable", but most of the tone is in the fingers IMO.)

I used to teach pistol marksmanship in the Marine Corps. One of my sayings was "comfort equals consistency", and I believe it's true in this context as well. A bass that fits a person, hangs right on the strap, balances well, and feels natural when a player's hands are in position, allows the freedom to just play and not be distracted by anything about the bass itself.

 

[0v3nm4n]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

I was wondering also about the DarkStar style pups? are they single or humbucking/canceling? they seem like they can pass off for a nice P/EB0 hybrid

 

[NoiseBomb]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

I think to be asking for a bass that will cover all that criteria is wishful thinking to say the least. To my knowledge anyway.

Probably the best you could do is buy a naturally versatile bass. I'd recommend a Mexican P or something. Inexpensive, and a good precision will do just about anything. Pretty good all round instrument. Or you could try some kind of active bass, something with an eq so you have a few more tonal options. A Warwick maybe?

Happy bass-hunting!

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

I have had another think about this question.

My mind keeps returning to the colossal variety of tones extracted by Jaco Pastorius from a couple of early Sixties Fender Jazz Bass guitars. This train of thought has had unfortunate consequences for my bank balance. :naughty:

 

[0v3nm4n]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

Ok guys, I think I know what I want to do pickup wise;

Dark Star in the P/neck location

Stingray/Jazz Hybrid bridge


I'm going to talk to the Seymour Duncan Custom Shop about making this a matched set. I really want split sound to be Jazz and Parallel to be some type of Stingray/Jazz hybrid while series is full sting ray. I was also thinking about having their rendition of the Dark Star split to a P or J neck sound (and if I had a parallel option on it, it'd probably sound like a less woofy EB0). It might cost a pretty penny, but it's worth it IMO.

Now I need to think about woods. Maple will most likely be the neck, but I'm now debating between alder and ash for the body....what say you fellas?


Thanks

 

[BlueTalon]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

I think you'll be very happy with the tonal possibilities with those pickups in those positions.

For body wood, it kinda depends on how you plan on finishing it, but you can't go wrong with alder. I'd definitely go with alder over ash. But then I would also consider mahogany, but that's just me.

For the neck, do you prefer it finished or unfinished? If finished, then maple is great. But if you like the feel of an unfinished neck, you might try bubinga. I have a bubinga neck with a wenge fretboard, and I love it. It's the fastest feeling neck I have.

 

[0v3nm4n]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

I was thinking of doing an alder back with an ash top and dropping some black die into it to make the streak marks look more like a tiger...finishing it off with a yellow/black/brown burst to really make it look like a kitty. The bass will be a bolt on neck most likely. If it will be, I was wondering if anyone has used the attitude 3 bass (yamaha) I am considering the angled bolts Billy uses to pull the end-grain together.

What do you think is heavier, bubinga or maple?

 

[BlueTalon]

Re: Swiss Army-Bass

Bubinga is heavier.