tasteful key changing/mode changing

[Quencho092]

this is a spinoff of my blues thread. TFD got me curious about that key changing thing that you can do to change the feel of a song.

For example, if your playing a C7 F7 G7 blues progression, you can switch the key from c minor pentatonic and re-align your modes according to F major pentatonic. How does this work? F major pentatonic is the equivalent of D minor pentatonic, meaning that the root for soloing has shifted to the ii. Why does this work/happen and how can i get this to work with other scales/progressions?

TONE FOR DAYS, HELP?

 

[tone4days]

Re: tasteful key changing/mode changing

hmmm ... i'm not quite following you there, QO2 ... i was talking about using an F major tonality to solo over a blues of C7 / F7 / G7 ... you lost me when you went to D minor ...

so we'd have the notes F G A Bb C D E F to work with ... we can find the major pentatonic scales 'hidden' within these notes ... so we have F major pentatonic ( F G A C D F ) ... we also have Bb major pentatonic ( Bb C D F G Bb ) ... and C major pentatonic ( C D E G A C ) ... and of course we still have the C blues scale (like a minor pentatonic) to use (C Eb F Gb G Bb C ) ...

any clearer?

hope this helps
t4d

 

[Ocifer]

Re: tasteful key changing/mode changing

The interaction between major and minor keys is a defining factor of the blues. It's just a sound that works. In fact, some passing tones used in the blues/minor pentatonic are derived from the F major pentatonic. Hitting an A, for example, gives it that interplay between major and minor. Just try stringing together licks from both the major and minor to get a bluesy feel..."You Shook Me All Night Long" by ACDC is a prime example. If you look at that solo, it changes several times from the G minor pentatonic to G major pentatonic. Try taking apart some solos to understand how it works.

EDIT: I'm sorry that I didn't get into the technicalities more. Umm... basically, it's just a sound that works. I'm not sure why, I'm sure some theory egghead could explain if you ask around on the web some more. Another factor as to why it 'just works' is that in your case, you're playing over dominant seventh chords. These are some of the easiest chords to slip passing tones and outside notes over, and (again, not sure of the theory) I've heard some people say you could play anything over a dominant seventh.

 

[Quencho092]

Re: tasteful key changing/mode changing

hmmm ... i'm not quite following you there, QO2 ... i was talking about using an F major tonality to solo over a blues of C7 / F7 / G7 ... you lost me when you went to D minor ...

so we'd have the notes F G A Bb C D E F to work with ... we can find the major pentatonic scales 'hidden' within these notes ... so we have F major pentatonic ( F G A C D F ) ... we also have Bb major pentatonic ( Bb C D F G Bb ) ... and C major pentatonic ( C D E G A C ) ... and of course we still have the C blues scale (like a minor pentatonic) to use (C Eb F Gb G Bb C ) ...

any clearer?

hope this helps
t4d

I was talking modally. D minor pentatonic=Fmajor pentatonic=G dorian pentatonic etc. All these scales chain into eachother in the same key, but starting at different notes. I'm a modal guy when it comes to theory, i like to simply figure out how scales work with eachother and wrestle with them to build my solos instead of counting notes around, etc.

So modally speaking, how do this thingies work? F is the 4th of the root of the progession, Bb is the minor 7th, C is the root.

I see how the F major pentatonic would weave in nicely, it shares many tones with F dorian pentatonic (aligned to C minor root)and Eb phyrigian pentatonic (aligned to C major root). The Bb major pentatonic shares tones with the Bb mixolyidan pentatonic the only difference being th presence of that lone D in the Bb major pentatonic scale.

 

[tone4days]

Re: tasteful key changing/mode changing

sorry QO2 ... i've never studied / approached modal pentatonics ... i mean, i understand what you are referring to in an acadedmic / conceptual way, i suppose .. but i cant get my head inside "phyrgian pentatonic" or 'dorian pentatonic" ... and i KNOW i never approach my playing that way ... sorry if i havent been much help

t4d

 

[hacker]

Re: tasteful key changing/mode changing

Quencho-Dude! You are killing yourself here. Originally, you were talking about breathing new life into your blues solos. Stick with the normal major/minor pentatonics for the key you're in. If you want to occaisionally shift into another pentatonic over the IV chord, that could be cool, but overdoing it will make your solo less bluesy.

Instead you should be thinking along the lines of creating melody in your solos, using "call and response" type licks, or some theme and variation. Listen to the great blues players-guys you don't get sick of hearing-for me its B.B. King, Allman Brothers, Jimi Hendrix.

I like Clapton's "From the Cradle" CD because it covers a variety of blues players and styles. Also, the Allman's "Fillmore East" is a must have. It is a textbook of blues/rock improvisation-and the whole album is basic major/minor pentatonics with some Dorian Mode jamming thrown in (Whipping Post, for example has a killer solo in A Dorian), and it covers some great rhythm styles as well.

 

[xerxes]

Re: tasteful key changing/mode changing

i have a feeling it has to do with the cycle of fifths, but im not sure...

 

[tone4days]

Re: tasteful key changing/mode changing

... that could be cool, but overdoing it will make your solo less bluesy...

gotta disagree with this sweeping generality ... it might tend to make his solo less cliched, but not necessarily less bluesy ... like i mentioned in the other thread, don mock's video about 'the blues - from rock to jazz' shows that the idiom supports a wide variety of flavors for those open-minded enough to emplore and accept them ... robben ford, larry carlton, and many others demonstrate easily that there are many shades of blue

your recommendations are all spot on though .. great stuff ...

t4d

 

[Quencho092]

Re: tasteful key changing/mode changing

sorry QO2 ... i've never studied / approached modal pentatonics ... i mean, i understand what you are referring to in an acadedmic / conceptual way, i suppose .. but i cant get my head inside "phyrgian pentatonic" or 'dorian pentatonic" ... and i KNOW i never approach my playing that way ... sorry if i havent been much help

t4d

Dont sweat it dude! You gave me the idea that i can throw in those extra notes supplied by the F and Bb major pentatonic scales, now i have another dimension to explore in my blues soloing. It just took me a little bit of thinking and peeking at my fretboard to figure out how to translate from your POV to mine. :burnout:

 

[Quencho092]

Re: tasteful key changing/mode changing

Quencho-Dude! You are killing yourself here. Originally, you were talking about breathing new life into your blues solos. Stick with the normal major/minor pentatonics for the key you're in. If you want to occaisionally shift into another pentatonic over the IV chord, that could be cool, but overdoing it will make your solo less bluesy.

Instead you should be thinking along the lines of creating melody in your solos, using "call and response" type licks, or some theme and variation. Listen to the great blues players-guys you don't get sick of hearing-for me its B.B. King, Allman Brothers, Jimi Hendrix.

I like Clapton's "From the Cradle" CD because it covers a variety of blues players and styles. Also, the Allman's "Fillmore East" is a must have. It is a textbook of blues/rock improvisation-and the whole album is basic major/minor pentatonics with some Dorian Mode jamming thrown in (Whipping Post, for example has a killer solo in A Dorian), and it covers some great rhythm styles as well.

Yeah, i really found it helpful to listen to songs like key to the highway with BB and clapton. The singing lead really gives soul to the song. I guess that's something i should try working on, building solo melodies...

Any tips on that besides listening alot?

 

[gordon_39422]

Re: tasteful key changing/mode changing

I studied at the Atlanta Institue of Music, and we went through the textbook applications of modes... You can call a C Major Scale 7 different names, but the notes within are based on the C Major scale... However, when we performed, we were urged not to worry about the academic approach, and explore the application....

You can over-rationalize Dorian and Phrygian to death... The simple matter is to learn what gives you the sounds you seek and those that dont... Studying modes is only to provide a frame of reference, not to live by.... Use them to get your bearings, then let it rip....

The SKy is the limit!

 

[hacker]

Re: tasteful key changing/mode changing

"Key To The Highway" is a great 8-bar blues. In the Derek and the Dominoes version from the Layla CD, Clapton goes through several cycles of the prgoression which are all different from each other, but the vocal melody is clearly evident in each one. Quoting the vocal melody of the song in your solos is something that is done, at least occaisionally, by just about every good guitar player out there.

Hum the melody while you are playing, then make up different variations of it, or "respond" with a different lick. Then, if you want to, at the end of your solo, explode into a fast scale run (descending is cool too) or something dramatic like that. Learn to bend the hell out of those notes. Use stacato phrasing, vibrato, reverse bends, etc. to make the notes speak. Your solos should say something-make a statement. O.K., I'm rambling now...


BTW...I have recordings by Carlton and Ford. I hardly ever listen to them. The best work of Carlton, IMO, is with Steely Dan. Great players, but I'm just not into them.

 

[Quencho092]

Re: tasteful key changing/mode changing

yeah, carlton the man when it comes to fusion chops, but it's too bad he couldn't make melodies as sweet as clapton and other great blues heroes...

 

[gordon_39422]

Re: tasteful key changing/mode changing

I read this entire thread again, and think I might understand your origianl question....

In the I-Iv-V of C, you are playing C7, F7, and G7....

You were saying that while playing the C Pent, you can switch to F Pent and rock on...
I have to say that is some good thinking!

If you took the C Blues and played it over the entire song, it could get old quickly....

If you played the C Blues over the C7, the F Blues over the F7, and the G blues over the G7, you would seriously be playing some righteous solos...

The trick there is to learn HOW to change... If you simply jump from one to the other, the change will seem choppy... But, if you mapped out the scales for each chord WITHIN the same key, you could find some hlf-step intevals that would allow some interesting passages from one scale to the next while accentuating the changes...

I posted something along this nature in a similar thread in this very room, but it didnt seem to be received in a welcome manner...

If I am misinterpreting your question, then disregard... If this is what you were getting at, then say so, and I will post some leading tones from one scale to the next that can be performed almost seamlessly!

Allen