The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

[JB6464]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

For the record, every PAF style pickup Duncan makes is wound on the EXACT Leesona winder that was used to wind the original PAFs, whether it be a lowly 59 or a Custom shop creation



Yes thats correct but the originals did'nt all have the exact same dc output rating like S.D. does on thier production models. They stopped the machine when the original winder thought the bobbins were full. If you measure most S.D. production models there all pretty close to the same dc output for each pickup design. Even the Gibson Burstbuckers today are not the same dc output from BB1,BB2,or BB3. They will all vary in dc output.

 

[Christopher Caruana]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

I had a '57 classic in the neck of my les paul classic and it only stayed in there for about 3 weeks. The tone was amazing but the pickup was WAY too bassy......almost to the point of muddyness, so i took it out.

 

[CaughtLikeFire]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

I had a '57 classic in the neck of my les paul classic and it only stayed in there for about 3 weeks. The tone was amazing but the pickup was WAY too bassy......almost to the point of muddyness, so i took it out.

I had the same experience but in an SG '61 reissue - not a heavy LP. ridiculously boomy. had to turn the bass on my amp almost all the way to zero. really did not sound like a typical A2 pickup to me. in the bridge, a regular 57 was just too weak. for the most part, it was all honk and no crunch.

they might be ok in other guitars, but my experience with them was far from positive. give a me a Pearly Gates any day!

 

[Franluthier]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

What's the point about this?
That's why seymour or other pickup builders offer a wide variety of pickups.
Imagine what would happen if you go to buy a seth, and they gave you a seth that measures different than any other you've tried? you wouldn't like it. Every SETH, every 59, every PG, every APII have to read the same so you know what you are buying.
That's why you have plenty of vintage pafs to choose, if you want those pafs that were hotter than usual go for the hotter ones seymour offers, if you want quiet ones go for less output.

Imagine if seymour forgets to stop the machine and sells you an ANT that reads 10k? you will throw the pickup in his face! Every product they offer has to be the same for every person!

For the record, every PAF style pickup Duncan makes is wound on the EXACT Leesona winder that was used to wind the original PAFs, whether it be a lowly 59 or a Custom shop creation

Yes thats correct but the originals did'nt all have the exact same dc output rating like S.D. does on thier production models. They stopped the machine when the original winder thought the bobbins were full. If you measure most S.D. production models there all pretty close to the same dc output for each pickup design. Even the Gibson Burstbuckers today are not the same dc output from BB1,BB2,or BB3. They will all vary in dc output.

 

[JB6464]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

That is the point ! The original PAF did'nt have the exact dc output and windings from pickup to pickup. Everyone they wound on the machine was a little different in windings and dc output. Modern pickups give you the vintage vibe but they are exactly the same each time . Seymour winds the Ant's to have a little different dc output ratings but their still evenly wound on each bobbin. So what you get is a vintage aged A2 with a even wound tone that sounds the same from each set i've ever had with a little difference in dc output. Thats great if you want the same tone in every set. Plug into a set of Burstbuckers and thay all sound different from the BB1,BB2,BB3,potted and unpotted version pickups and their modern recreations of the PAF.

 

[Franluthier]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Those DC differences you're talking about are the differences you have in all the seymour line (talking about vintage pafs) for example SETHS, APII or PG have same magnet, same wire, the only difference is the DC, that is what we could consider "the factory mistake" when talking about more or less windings...
I know what you mean about liking pickups that have differnt DC on each bobbin, it really works great, but I truely don't believe each burstbucker 1 will sound different from each burstbucker 1, there will be no reason to have BB1, BB2 and BB3, that's why they have 3 models, to let you choose "mistaken windings". Also I've opened burstbuckers and they were potted, when they say at gibsons web that they're not... So I don't take everything I read on any pickup manufacturer till I see it... as someone said here it's all marketing...

That is the point ! The original PAF did'nt have the exact dc output and windings from pickup to pickup. Everyone they wound on the machine was a little different in windings and dc output. Modern pickups give you the vintage vibe but they are exactly the same each time . Seymour winds the Ant's to have a little different dc output ratings but their still evenly wound on each bobbin. So what you get is a vintage aged A2 with a even wound tone that sounds the same from each set i've ever had with a little difference in dc output. Thats great if you want the same tone in every set. Plug into a set of Burstbuckers and thay all sound different from the BB1,BB2,BB3,potted and unpotted version pickups and their modern recreations of the PAF.

 

[Christopher Caruana]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

I had the same experience but in an SG '61 reissue - not a heavy LP. ridiculously boomy. had to turn the bass on my amp almost all the way to zero. really did not sound like a typical A2 pickup to me. in the bridge, a regular 57 was just too weak. for the most part, it was all honk and no crunch.

they might be ok in other guitars, but my experience with them was far from positive. give a me a Pearly Gates any day!

sorry thats what i meant.......too boomy. i also had to turn the bass on my amp way down. i love the tone, but not the boomy-ness. I had it in my LP classic, but not for long

 

[ErikH]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Those DC differences you're talking about are the differences you have in all the seymour line (talking about vintage pafs) for example SETHS, APII or PG have same magnet, same wire, the only difference is the DC, that is what we could consider "the factory mistake" when talking about more or less windings...
I know what you mean about liking pickups that have differnt DC on each bobbin, it really works great, but I truely don't believe each burstbucker 1 will sound different from each burstbucker 1, there will be no reason to have BB1, BB2 and BB3, that's why they have 3 models, to let you choose "mistaken windings". Also I've opened burstbuckers and they were potted, when they say at gibsons web that they're not... So I don't take everything I read on any pickup manufacturer till I see it... as someone said here it's all marketing...

Those different offerings by Seymour also have different wire and a different pattern. That is what makes them all unique, not just one being overwound and one not. There are more differences than that.

With today's technology, it is possible to create the same exact pickup and keep things identical.

There are unpotted Burstbuckers, but they are available on certain models, or were. Whether they still offer them, I don't know.

 

[Franluthier]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Sorry to disagree man... but I made pickups myself and know what I'm talking about...

talking about the models I have mentioned there are no other differences than DC resistance...
what defines the tone of a pickup is the bobbin tallness, which is always the same here, the wire gauge wich is always AWG42 (you'll find different wire on CC or JB which use AWG43, thiner wire because we need to increase the DC in the same space in the bobbin), the magnet which is always A2 (seth, PG, APII), and in some way if it's hand wired or machined wired. Here we are talking about production machines so... the difference is between how much wire do we have in the bobbins, it's a matter of resistance and inductance...sorry don't wanna be rude but I'm tired of all those stupid myths that go on and on, they spread all over internet making us more stupid just because of marketing...

Those different offerings by Seymour also have different wire and a different pattern. That is what makes them all unique, not just one being overwound and one not. There are more differences than that.

With today's technology, it is possible to create the same exact pickup and keep things identical.

There are unpotted Burstbuckers, but they are available on certain models, or were. Whether they still offer them, I don't know.

 

[ErikH]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Sorry to disagree man... but I made pickups myself and know what I'm talking about...

talking about the models I have mentioned there are no other differences than DC resistance...
what defines the tone of a pickup is the bobbin tallness, which is always the same here, the wire gauge wich is always AWG42 (you'll find different wire on CC or JB which use AWG43, thiner wire because we need to increase the DC in the same space in the bobbin), the magnet which is always A2 (seth, PG, APII), and in some way if it's hand wired or machined wired. Here we are talking about production machines so... the difference is between how much wire do we have in the bobbins, it's a matter of resistance and inductance...sorry don't wanna be rude but I'm tired of all those stupid myths that go on and on, they spread all over internet making us more stupid just because of marketing...

Well, when someone like Seymour talks about the winding differences and the different types of wire used, I tend to believe him.

 

[lemonman]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

talking about the models I have mentioned there are no other differences than DC resistance...

Uhh....I have or have had all the Duncan PAFs, including models that measured the exact same resistance, and they all sound distinctly different. It's not the resistance (all in the low 8k's) that determines the sound differences among these models, it's the wind pattern, tension, and type of wire/insulation. How much winding have you done?

And, if Seymour accidentally wound an Ant. to 10K, you'd have a line of guys asking you to name your price for it(search out the 10K PAF threads).

 

[Franluthier]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

I know what you mean by a 10 k paf, but it wouldn't be an ANT... It would be a HOT ANT... nothing to do with vintage...
have you tried all those pickups you had in the same guitar? I doubt it...
I'm pretty sure if you open those pickups you'll find the same materials...(A2, AWG42, PLASTIC BOBBINS, BASEPLATE, COVERS, WOODEN SPACERS...)
Wind pattern yes, it does a difference, but the wind pattern on a machine can't vary too much...
Handwinding yes, it does the difference that's why I make them myself, handwinded!

Uhh....I have or have had all the Duncan PAFs, including models that measured the exact same resistance, and they all sound distinctly different. It's not the resistance (all in the low 8k's) that determines the sound differences among these models, it's the wind pattern, tension, and type of wire/insulation. How much winding have you done?

And, if Seymour accidentally wound an Ant. to 10K, you'd have a line of guys asking you to name your price for it(search out the 10K PAF threads).

 

[Franluthier]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Well, when someone like Seymour talks about the winding differences and the different types of wire used, I tend to believe him.

Believe him, but that's refering to the whole DUNCAN LINE not the VINTAGE ONE

If you read Seymours catalog, or he's pickup and electronics book wich I can't remembre right now, you'll find that the tallness of the bobbin has a lot to do with the sound of the pickup, that's why a single coil fender doesn't sound like a P-90 single

 

[ErikH]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Believe him, but that's refering to the whole DUNCAN LINE not the VINTAGE ONE

If you read Seymours catalog, or he's pickup and electronics book wich I can't remembre right now, you'll find that the tallness of the bobbin has a lot to do with the sound of the pickup, that's why a single coil fender doesn't sound like a P-90 single

I'm talking about his line of pickups within the 7.5k to 8.5k range. The Seth, Alnico II Pro, Pearly Gates, heck even the '78 Model (more like 9k there) all use an alnico 2 magnet and AWG wire but they have different spacers, different wind patterns and some of those cases, different types of wire or the same type with different insulation, along with a difference in DC resistance and the number of winds. It all comes in to play, even the size of the bobbin. I may not wind my own but I've been playing long enough (over 20 years) to know what effects a pickup.

Not only does a strat single-coil not sound like a P-90 because of the height, but the overall size of the coil, width and girth included. A Tele pickup is the same way, larger than a Strat single-coil and a larger sound.

Somewhere it looks like we're saying the same thing, only looking at it from a different angle.

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

I know what you mean by a 10 k paf, but it wouldn't be an ANT... It would be a HOT ANT... nothing to do with vintage...

There was actually a goldtop that sold a few years ago that had an 8K neck and a 10K bridge.

have you tried all those pickups you had in the same guitar? I doubt it...
I'm pretty sure if you open those pickups you'll find the same materials...(A2, AWG42, PLASTIC BOBBINS, BASEPLATE, COVERS, WOODEN SPACERS...)
Wind pattern yes, it does a difference, but the wind pattern on a machine can't vary too much...
Handwinding yes, it does the difference that's why I make them myself, handwinded!

It depends on the pup. The Ants and Seths both use butyrate bobbins like the original PAFs, they also use the maple spacers, like a 57 classic. However the Jazz, A2P, and PG all use plastic spacers if memory serves.

All those pups as well as the 78 use 42awg magnet wire, however the Seths, Ants, and 59 all use plain enamel insulation the other pups use different insulations. The Jazz and A2P appear to use a Formvar for instance.

A wind on a machine can't vary as much as it can by hand. Thus the reason the Timbuckers were/are so highly sought after. This is also the reason our very own Zhang started his Pure Handwounds series..

All that said, no one can "hear" an ohm, or 1K ohms. I also seriously doubt someone can hear unbalanced coils.

Luke

 

[j9fd3s]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

since we're off topic a bit ive got two questions

1. is SD's winding machine from gibson, or just the same type? not that it makes any difference in the pickups, but it would be kinda cool if SD bought an old gibson machine.

2. if the pickup is a small voltage generator (if you read the SD/seth lover interview thats what they call it), how does the wooden spacer, and the bobbin material affect tone? neither wood nor plastic have anything to do with an electronic signal.

 

[jeremy]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

I know what you mean by a 10 k paf, but it wouldn't be an ANT... It would be a HOT ANT

i doubt there ever was a real 10k paf but i had mj make me a 10k antiquity and it was amazing. best bridge pup ive ever had, except maybe the 9.6k antiquity she made me.

I'm pretty sure if you open those pickups you'll find the same materials...(A2, AWG42, PLASTIC BOBBINS, BASEPLATE, COVERS, WOODEN SPACERS...)
Wind pattern yes, it does a difference, but the wind pattern on a machine can't vary too much...
Handwinding yes, it does the difference that's why I make them myself, handwinded!

actually there is a fair amount of adjustment on the machine when it comes to tpl, not as much as hand winding obviously. i notice less of a difference on handwound humbuckers than on single coils, with singles there can be a huge difference where as with buckers it is more subtle.

talking about the models I have mentioned there are no other differences than DC resistance...
what defines the tone of a pickup is the bobbin tallness, which is always the same here, the wire gauge wich is always AWG42, the magnet which is always A2, and in some way if it's hand wired or machined wired. Here we are talking about production machines so... the difference is between how much wire do we have in the bobbins, it's a matter of resistance and inductance...

you can have a two buckers made with the same exact 42 pe wire off the same spool, similar a2 magnets both charged to 25 gauss, both machine wound on the same machine and they will sound drastically different if the turns per layer are drastically different.

That is the point ! The original PAF did'nt have the exact dc output and windings from pickup to pickup. Everyone they wound on the machine was a little different in windings and dc output. Modern pickups give you the vintage vibe but they are exactly the same each time . Seymour winds the Ant's to have a little different dc output ratings but their still evenly wound on each bobbin. So what you get is a vintage aged A2 with a even wound tone that sounds the same from each set i've ever had with a little difference in dc output. Thats great if you want the same tone in every set. Plug into a set of Burstbuckers and thay all sound different from the BB1,BB2,BB3,potted and unpotted version pickups and their modern recreations of the PAF.

not all pafs sounded good either, ive heard at least one that was a freaking dog. if you find a wind that is great, i think it only makes sense to stick with it. i like the bb1/2/3 line of pups but every once in a while i hear one that kinda sucks, maybe its cause gibsons tolerance is too wide. duncan runs a =/- 10% tolerance on their line i believe.

 

[alba44]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

since we're off topic a bit ive got two questions

1. is SD's winding machine from gibson, or just the same type? not that it makes any difference in the pickups, but it would be kinda cool if SD bought an old gibson machine.

Yes, I read somewhere that he has an original gibson winding machine from Kalamazoo Mich that he uses on certain models of pickups

 

[jeremy]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

yeah its the original from kalamazoo and it gets used on all the paf types

 

[j9fd3s]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

that's cool