The importance of cutting through a mix

[stratguy23]

I recently attended a show that really underscored the importance of cutting through a mix.

Metal/punk show, multi-band bill. 2 of the bands had 1 guitar, the others had 2 guitars.

The 2 bands with 1 guitar were Discharge and Toxic Holocaust. They each used the same JCM 900, which sounded horrible on its own. Thin, trebly, almost surf guitar tones coming out of it at high gain.

BUT the sound man did a great job fitting it into the mix. Bass and drums were mixed cleanly and robustly, vocals fit right in the middle, and guitars were just right as a high mids spike.

Other bands had "better" amps - Oranges and whatnot - but the 2 bands with JCM 900 more than held their own because no frequencies were fighting with each other.

It was a really good reminder that what sounds "bad" on its own may be great in context.

 

[Demanic]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Amen. Which is why so many who try to get a good bedroom sound are disappointed when they can't turn just turn it up louder and automatically sound good.

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[SlyFoxx]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Main reason I like V30's. They just cut through. By themselves not really my favorite.

 

[Demanic]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Celestion 12M-70's, the red headed step child of the brand, also cut really well.

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[Boogie Bill]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Been there done that. Marshalls are amazing in that regard. Had a heck of a time trying to sell my old Marshall...until I invited a potential buyer to one of my gigs...and he bought it on the spot.

Bill

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

I've been convinced for a long time that the best stage tones are not the best tones by themselves.

Celestion 12M-70's, the red headed step child of the brand, also cut really well.

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That, they do. I use them with a Music Man HD 150, and even at low volumes, they cut right through.

 

[Demanic]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

They have quite the low end too. You have to be careful dialing them in. You don't have to be afraid of scooping the mids. But you don't need to boost the bass. The highs are very nice.

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[DrNewcenstein]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

If you listen closely to the opening of Veil of Isis by The Sword, the individual guitar tones are not that great, but once they're playing together, they blend perfectly. Same with a lot of older Judas Priest stuff (Before Turbo). You've Got Another Thing Comin' has two of the weakest-gain guitar tones by themselves, where 2-note chords on the 3rd and 4th frets that should have major sustain appear to choke out early, but once they're both playing the same rhythm part, and the bass on top, it's one of the heaviest mixes in Metal.

I keep hearing stuff that's over-saturated in other bands and it just sounds like buzzing. The rhythm tones on Testament's Souls Of Black is like this. One guitar is over-saturated. The second joins in and it's just white noise. What's bizarre is that the lead guitar tone appears to have less gain and is far more articulate, to the point that notes in the lower register seem Surfish.

If you watch a couple of the Metallica documentaries/behind the scenes clips and hear Hetfield's raw rhythm tone, it sounds muddy and farty, but once it's doubled and mixed, it's brutal and articulate.

 

[stratguy23]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Yeah, Souls of Black does have pretty bad tones, despite the fantastic music. The late 80s weren't a great time for metal tones. The music was getting heavier, but modern dedicated metal amps like the 5150 hadn't come around yet.

I think doubling and two guitar arrangements pose different problems and solutions than one guitar ones.

Early EVH isolated tracks sound just as godlike as the full recordings. He's taking up a lot of space in the mix because he can, with no 2nd guitar to worry about.

 

[Lampy H]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

I've always preferred the sound of a great "in the mix" guitar tone, even at low volumes. I usually play with <Kill Em All gain levels, with mostly treble and mods cranked, very little low end. And I'm playing Hetfield rhythms. It just hits my ear the right way, especially when I play my own music, it feels like my sound.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

My experience in the studio is that thinner JCM900 sound is what doesn't stomp on other instruments. The way to get more beef or adjust the EQ is simply use a different microphone and/or mic pre.

 

[HiFiRebel]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

I learned a long time ago that playing guitar and playing guitar in a band were two very different things.

 

[GAS-a-holic]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Amen. Which is why so many who try to get a good bedroom sound are disappointed when they can't turn just turn it up louder and automatically sound good.

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+1

Bedroom tones usually have way too much low end - once you get onstage with a bass player and drummer it all gets lost.

In a live situation, it's just as important to be heard as it is to have a good sound. Marshalls can sound nasally by themselves; put them in a band and that midrange is priceless.

 

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

20/10 on this all! So ****ing important but everyone wants to have 'their own sound'. My bass player and I work out our tones together when something isn't fitting right, and almost never reach for the volume knob unless its to go down.

 

[DeadandBuried]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Yeah, keep your mids and don't over kill the gain knob!! Seen way many bands here with amp setups (if they even bring their own amps) with the mids on 2/3 and bass all the way up! Then maxing out the gain! Or even worse, a Boss Metalzone or similar and cranking that up.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Main reason I like V30's. They just cut through. By themselves not really my favorite.

Yup. I'm not a fan of V30s when playing in the man cave. But when I gig with them, I can always be heard. "Scoopy" and flat-EQ'd rock speakers are much harder to make punch through the live mix. A shame because some of them sound so good at home or on a recording. Just the nature of the live music beast I guess.

And totally agreed on the premise of this thread. I hate it when I have tone to die for, but get lost in the mix. Total buzzkill.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Yeah, keep your mids and don't over kill the gain knob!! Seen way many bands here with amp setups (if they even bring their own amps) with the mids on 2/3 and bass all the way up! Then maxing out the gain! Or even worse, a Boss Metalzone or similar and cranking that up.

I routinely turn my gain knobs down 1-2 numbers when I play live, as it just turns to mush. The power tube saturation works better in a live setting anyways. Which is probably why bedroom settings suck live anyways -- cause you're not getting the help from those power tubes compressing at home volumes. So in effect, you've added gain live when you're running your amp harder.

 

[jeremy]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

i have a little amp, was born as a musicmaster bass amp but is now that only in name. 1x12 and 12w with a greenback. it sounds a little odd by itself, not a lot of bottom and not all that pretty but it sits perfectly in a mix. strong upper mids that cut through and the "not pretty" bits give it great texture without filling up too much sonic space.

 

[DeadandBuried]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

I routinely turn my gain knobs down 1-2 numbers when I play live, as it just turns to mush. The power tube saturation works better in a live setting anyways. Which is probably why bedroom settings suck live anyways -- cause you're not getting the help from those power tubes compressing at home volumes. So in effect, you've added gain live when you're running your amp harder.

Yeah I actually use less gain live than I do if I play in my room. Usually have it on 3.5 on my 6505+ (and that has gain on tap!) and on 5 at home through a Marshall combo. Been contemplating using the crunch channel as well live, see if that would make it beefier, as opposed to the red channel. I played one song in a rehearsal on the green channel and it didn't cut as much (yes I know it was a rehearsal room) so I kept it on the red!

 

[probo_squad_henry]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

If you listen closely to the opening of Veil of Isis by The Sword, the individual guitar tones are not that great, but once they're playing together, they blend perfectly. Same with a lot of older Judas Priest stuff (Before Turbo). You've Got Another Thing Comin' has two of the weakest-gain guitar tones by themselves, where 2-note chords on the 3rd and 4th frets that should have major sustain appear to choke out early, but once they're both playing the same rhythm part, and the bass on top, it's one of the heaviest mixes in Metal.

I keep hearing stuff that's over-saturated in other bands and it just sounds like buzzing. The rhythm tones on Testament's Souls Of Black is like this. One guitar is over-saturated. The second joins in and it's just white noise. What's bizarre is that the lead guitar tone appears to have less gain and is far more articulate, to the point that notes in the lower register seem Surfish.

If you watch a couple of the Metallica documentaries/behind the scenes clips and hear Hetfield's raw rhythm tone, it sounds muddy and farty, but once it's doubled and mixed, it's brutal and articulate.

Another great example is the most recent recording of "White Dove" by Dorje. After the solo there's a break and its just one guitar playing the riff and the tone sounds WAY too thin, then a second track comes in and it sounds thick and chunky