The importance of cutting through a mix

[Empty Pockets]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Sometimes it's best to 'fill in' the mix rather than cut through it. I've been writing songs with another guitarist and the way my rhythm tone fills the lows and highs allows her lead tone to sit up front.

 

[Lampy H]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Sometimes it's best to 'fill in' the mix rather than cut through it. I've been writing songs with another guitarist and the way my rhythm tone fills the lows and highs allows her lead tone to sit up front.

This is my approach as well. I rarely play lead.

 

[80's_Metal]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

I really like it when guitarists compliment each other rather than sounding totally different.

Not cloning exact sounds, that sounds poor. But close and not so close.

 

[Demanic]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

I really like it when guitarists compliment each other rather than sounding totally different.

Not cloning exact sounds, that sounds poor. But close and not so close.

Flotsam and Jetsam.

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[Diego]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

I saw Lamb of God, Gojira, Deftones, FNM and System of a Down in the same venue one after another.

LOG, FNM and System of a Down had what you'd call "thin" and cutting guitar tones. FNM was almost honky middy. But boy did they sound right as a band.
LOG particularly was incredibly tight and clear sounding compared to the other bands.
Deftones' Stephen Carpenter had a thicker, sludgier tone that fit the slow riffs and distorted chords they used. Fit perfectly.

Gojira was a freaking mess sound-wise. Their guitar tones were the most scooped/bassy of all the bands, the kick drums clashed with the guitar attack, it wasn't really working with it.
I wanted to drop a TS9 or something in front of their guitar amps so badly, man. That kinda sound would have worked for Deftones, but not with the tight riffing they do.

 

[Demanic]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Love Lamb of God's tone.

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[Archer250]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Sometimes it's best to 'fill in' the mix rather than cut through it.

Yep. And this is how I set up the amps -- 2 guitars, a keyboard and a bass -- in the band. The overall sound of the band should be pleasing and tight. When I want to cut through, I use a TC Spark Mini as a clean boost. There's enough high mids in there to make an instrument pop out.

 

[Diego]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Love Lamb of God's tone.

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Not really a fan of them, but Ashes of the Wake has a damn tight sound as a record, and what they brought up live was pretty much spot-on with that.
Sounded absolutely brutal. By far the best sounding band that day.

 

[Demanic]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Been fighting for a decent band mix for years. On a budget. From what I can tell, sans monitors, if anyone can hear themselves perfectly, then they're too loud in the mix. If everyone can hear themselves just enough to be able to stay together for the song, then the overall mix is just right.

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[Chickenwings]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Marshall did not build those jcm900s by accident.

 

[Demanic]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Picked up a Randall RH-200 a few months back. SS but whomever designed it did their homework. Cuts through a mix without sounding thin like nobody's business.

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[DrNewcenstein]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

On the subject of bedroom tones, since you generally can't get the volume high enough to rattle the speaker, you aren't getting cabinet low-end, so you tend to twist the knob. As well, if you're playing along, and you're trying to match a layered, doubled, and mixed track with a single guitar, your tones tend to not translate as well into higher volume. This isn't as much of a problem with 1-guitar tracks, unless they've been heavily processed and layered for the recording.

Even then, playing along to Muddy Waters at bedroom volume is difficult because you're not getting the same punch due to the speaker not moving as much.

When I joined my first band, I had a killer bedroom tone and a set of headphones (KOSS Mac-5) that made it sound devastating. As soon as the drummer hit a cymbal, I was buried. When he fired off a kick, there went my rhythms. When I soloed, it sounded like a telephone ringing in another room.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

On the subject of bedroom tones, since you generally can't get the volume high enough to rattle the speaker, you aren't getting cabinet low-end, so you tend to twist the knob. As well, if you're playing along, and you're trying to match a layered, doubled, and mixed track with a single guitar, your tones tend to not translate as well into higher volume. This isn't as much of a problem with 1-guitar tracks, unless they've been heavily processed and layered for the recording.

Even then, playing along to Muddy Waters at bedroom volume is difficult because you're not getting the same punch due to the speaker not moving as much.

When I joined my first band, I had a killer bedroom tone and a set of headphones (KOSS Mac-5) that made it sound devastating. As soon as the drummer hit a cymbal, I was buried. When he fired off a kick, there went my rhythms. When I soloed, it sounded like a telephone ringing in another room.

I learned about this back in the day with my 69 Bassman. Playing quietly in my room, it was Volume on 2, Bass and Treble on 6-8. Playing loudly in the garage, volume on 6-10, Bass and Treble between 1-3. You have to be able to 'play' the amp and tune it to the situation you're in.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Sometimes it's best to 'fill in' the mix rather than cut through it. I've been writing songs with another guitarist and the way my rhythm tone fills the lows and highs allows her lead tone to sit up front.

I totally agree. I see all this gear you don't need with the selling point "cut through the mix!". What happens to the rest of it then? It should know its place in the mix. If everyone in your band has everything set up to 'cut through the mix', who wins out? To me it's a marketing phrase more than anything.

Picked up a Randall RH-200 a few months back. SS but whomever designed it did their homework. Cuts through a mix without sounding thin like nobody's business.

Hell yeah. I had the G2 was my gigging amp for years until I got my Marshall and Mesa. The gain was super tight and you had two modes, the clean had a clean boost, the EQ was really versatile, the cabinet was awesome. Empty might remember when I'd slave it into my 'The Twin' to use it's tube power section and then back out into the matching cab which was my 'rig of doom at the time'.

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

It's not even unique to live sound, but studio albums too. This one would probably surprise a lot of people:







People always act like Iommi has always had a massive low en on his guitar sound - that's mostly Geezer (who also has a lot of low mids) and Ward's kick drum. There's a lot of mids and upper mids (sounds like there was also a HPF) on Iommi's right rhythm guitar track, and it sounds like he's using the neck pickup on the left track. I'm constantly trying to remind myself that things need to sound different to be discernible from each other in a mix. Also, it's usually a good idea for the band to play softer/take a back seat during the verses so the singer can sit in a spot in the mix where people can actually understand the lyrics.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

It's not even unique to live sound, but studio albums too. This one would probably surprise a lot of people:







People always act like Iommi has always had a massive low en on his guitar sound - that's mostly Geezer (who also has a lot of low mids) and Ward's kick drum. There's a lot of mids and upper mids (sounds like there was also a HPF) on Iommi's right rhythm guitar track, and it sounds like he's using the neck pickup on the left track. I'm constantly trying to remind myself that things need to sound different to be discernible from each other in a mix. Also, it's usually a good idea for the band to play softer/take a back seat during the verses so the singer can sit in a spot in the mix where people can actually understand the lyrics.

Quote for truth. Mixing live bands, the most painful ones are guitars that have too much low end because the guitarist(s) are clearly emulating what they hear on their favourite CDs and don't know where the bass begins and the guitar ends. Not all music has to be heavy but for heavy music that needs to sound heavy and weighty, it comes from the sum of its parts not having what you think is the 'heaviest guitar tone evarrr' because without that rhythm section working, it's a wash.

 

[Lampy H]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Also, it's usually a good idea for the band to play softer/take a back seat during the verses so the singer can sit in a spot in the mix where people can actually understand the lyrics.

This really hit me when I realize that Iommi only played the root note of the Iron Man power chords during every verse.

You're right, his tone is a perfect example of a great "band sound."

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

This really hit me when I realize that Iommi only played the root note of the Iron Man power chords during every verse.

You're right, his tone is a perfect example of a great "band sound."

It's something I wish I realized sooner - I'm only just beginning to incorporate that kind of dynamic playing. You can't just think "oh I'll just mix leads and vocals louder" which I would sometimes think - it doesn't work like that at all.

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Also, it's usually a good idea for the band to play softer/take a back seat during the verses so the singer can sit in a spot in the mix where people can actually understand the lyrics.

This is the crux of the biscuit, right here. Also applies to the band taking it down a notch when the lead guitar solos instead of everyone pumping it up as loud as possible.

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

for heavy music that needs to sound heavy and weighty, it comes from the sum of its parts not having what you think is the 'heaviest guitar tone evarrr' because without that rhythm section working, it's a wash.

And this is the other part that so many bands miss...heavy comes from the whole band crushing a part at once, rather than any one instrument by itself. Deep Purple is the best example of this, to me. Folks try to make the guitar sounds super heavy when playing their tunes, but when you take the rest of the band away, especially John Lord's keyboard sound, Ritchie Blackmore's tone is much thinner and less distorted than people think.