The importance of cutting through a mix

[El Dunco]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

This is the crux of the biscuit, right here. Also applies to the band taking it down a notch when the lead guitar solos instead of everyone pumping it up as loud as possible.

It's like that Meat Loaf lyric "everything louder than everything else". Just doesn't work. If everything is heavy, nothing is heavy. If everything is loud, nothing is loud. If you look at the term "cut through the mix" literally, it makes it seem like you have to be out front at the expense of everything else.

Something a lot of people may not realize is guitars in metal mixes aren't as loud as you think they are. The transients of the drums, particularly the kick and snare are what really makes it punch and the guitars are eq'd properly so you're hearing the important parts at the right level. It's common for metal guitarists just getting into recording to try to base everything around the guitar. I've lost count of the number of guitarists in bands I've had in my studio who I've had to convince that the problems they were having are because they're using too much gain/bass. One particularly fussy one, I pretended to let him have his way but reamped the whole thing later and he was none the wiser and said "see? Told you it would work" or some such crap.

 

[ThisDyingSoul76]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

I typically turn down my bass when I'm in a band context.

As a matter of fact, I learned quite a while ago the way to sound great at higher volumes was to turn the bass down because the low end can get flubby due to increased speaker movement.

Then, if I'm still not cutting, I'll turn up the mids. Treble gets adjusted to where it's not painful to listen to.

 

[Laughing Kookaburra]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Been there done that. Marshalls are amazing in that regard. Had a heck of a time trying to sell my old Marshall...until I invited a potential buyer to one of my gigs...and he bought it on the spot.

Bill

They really occupy and hold a section of sonic real estate in a great way.

 

[Rand-O-Monium]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well stated & quoted.

I was freaking out when I "had to" go from a Stereo Rack(for years) to a Marshall combo & some pedals.but we've settled in nicely together...

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

It's like that Meat Loaf lyric "everything louder than everything else". Just doesn't work. If everything is heavy, nothing is heavy. If everything is loud, nothing is loud. If you look at the term "cut through the mix" literally, it makes it seem like you have to be out front at the expense of everything else.

Something a lot of people may not realize is guitars in metal mixes aren't as loud as you think they are. The transients of the drums, particularly the kick and snare are what really makes it punch and the guitars are eq'd properly so you're hearing the important parts at the right level. It's common for metal guitarists just getting into recording to try to base everything around the guitar. I've lost count of the number of guitarists in bands I've had in my studio who I've had to convince that the problems they were having are because they're using too much gain/bass. One particularly fussy one, I pretended to let him have his way but reamped the whole thing later and he was none the wiser and said "see? Told you it would work" or some such crap.

I never realized the importance of the kick and snare, but the more I think about it, the more I agree with you. A song's heaviness is either made or not made my the drums. Example: Zeppelin - Jimmy didn't use much gain, would use purposely thin tones, and John Paul Jones had mostly low end but not a present bass sound by any means, and if it weren't for Bonham songs like Dazed and Confused wouldn't have much weight at all.

Then there's Judas Priest - I love their first two albums, but Stained Class is probably in their top 3 heaviest albums - partly due to having Les Binks behind the kit (and darker songwriting). Painkiller is the only album that I'd say is "obviously" heavier, and I think it has to do with having Scott Travis (whom I consider to be on par with Les Binks) and Halford just letting it all out on that record. The only other album that comes close IMO is Defenders of the Faith, and I think the whole 'recording in an empty warehouse' thing gave both the drums and guitars a massive sound.

One final example: Queen. They were a lot heavier in the '70s, but then they starting using synthesizers and programmed drums. I still love every album, but the only Queen albums from the '80s that I consider "strong releases" are The Works and The Game. Then there's "I Can't Live With You" off Innuendo - the album version is soft rock and used obviously programmed drums, and the 1997 Rocks Retake sounds heavy like '70s Queen with the most noticeable difference being Roger Taylor actually playing on an acoustic drum kit. Innuendo also had one of Queen's heaviest songs. "The Hitman", and it sounds like it might actually have acoustic drums, but the drums are a bit too far back in the mix and processed for me to tell with any certainty. It could be Roger Taylor playing on an electronic kit, which he did a lot of in the studio during the '80s.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

One particularly fussy one, I pretended to let him have his way but reamped the whole thing later and he was none the wiser and said "see? Told you it would work" or some such crap.

Should have recorded both his way and the reamp and A/B'd them for him and said "See, told you it wouldn't work".

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

The singer in the band I used to have wanted us all to run the band mix through a ducking compressor so that it cut us down a notch during verses, but up to proper volume in between.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

The singer in the band I used to have wanted us all to run the band mix through a ducking compressor so that it cut us down a notch during verses, but up to proper volume in between.

Live or studio?

 

[Mincer]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Well, I am the only guitarist in the band, and I go direct, so the sound is an always 'in the mix' sound via IEMs. It makes it very easy to come up with room-filling guitar sounds. I was never satisfied with the end result before going direct- it sounded great at home but never as good at the gig. Now I don't have that problem.

 

[Diego]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Most of my "cutting through" issues would normally be fixed by bringing the stage volume down.
Way down.

Everything becomes more discernible, clearer.
Some bands like to have what feels to me like 120 db onstage in medium sized pubs. As much as I like heavy music, I don't like that.

Then there's a matter of knowing when to pull back your guitar sound a bit, allowing keyboards or the singer to have their space.
It's a matter of managing dynamics, which is why I think recording rehearsals is a must since it allows to find opportunities for this.

I also used to go direct quite a bit when I gigged, which is pretty easy to work with and I really recommend it if your setup allows it.
I'd use my Cube 60 with a rather reasonable volume, pointing at wherever I wanted, and let the PA system do the heavy lifting via Line Out.
It made my sound very consistent night to night and soundmen would have it very easy with me for that reason.

 

[Chad]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Two of the best things you can do as a live guitar player:

1. Get experience running FOH sound at least a little bit. It really helps you get a picture of how everything fits together.
2. Dial in your amp while it's pointed at your ears and not your knees. This lets you get a better idea of what the mic is gonna "hear". And also what people directly in front of your amp in the crowd are gonna hear (if you are running a backline pointed at the crowd).

As others have said, you don't want to "cut through the mix". You want to find your space in the mix. You want a synergy thing going on.

 

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Yeah I think if we replace the term 'cutting through' with 'sitting in' we'd be better off in this thread hah however a couple points to add to the fun:

-Beer$ is right. It's an illusion most of the time that the guitars themselves are huge. If you were able to solo them you'd really see how 'thin' they are in comparison. But its the relationship between all the instruments that makes it sound so big. The bass and kick support guitars big time, but because the guitar is obviously more midrange we 'hear' it as a whole and attribute it to the guitar itself.

At the end of the day all that matters is the overall sound/ mix. Some genres you do want low, sludgy guitars (doom!) and in others you want thinner more piercing tones (nwobhm!). But hey, we've all dealt with selfish musicians, and have been them ourselves.

 

[jeremy]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

youre right about the terminology. when i say cut through the mix, i really mean the tone sits nicely in the mix without eating up a lot of frequency range. obviously we want things to sound balanced so the kick, bass, toms, guitars, vocals, keyboards, snare, cymbals and high hats all have their own little window to shine through without overshadowing anything else

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Live or studio?

Both. He wanted it set up so when the vocal mic was receiving, the ducking would drop the music a bit. I was busy looking into frequency separation to make everything sit neatly together. Then it all fell apart when we tried to record an album. Nobody but me had the patience to ensure the recording was done right, and we didn't have enough free mixer channels to record live to 2 tracks. There were also the arguments about "you can do all the crazy extra stuff in the recording" vs "we can't replicate that live unless we bring in extra people", and "nobody cares if half the stuff on the recording isn't in the live presentation because you just bludgeon them with volume" vs "I care".

And the old "you can be sloppy live because everyone's drunk and it's loud" vs "I'd rather be consistent in both formats."

Then I had to go into a Master's Degree lecture on what can and cannot be "fixed in the mix" and why, with examples.

Apparently being a hermit with a 4-track was one of the better decisions I ever made.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Both. He wanted it set up so when the vocal mic was receiving, the ducking would drop the music a bit. I was busy looking into frequency separation to make everything sit neatly together. Then it all fell apart when we tried to record an album. Nobody but me had the patience to ensure the recording was done right, and we didn't have enough free mixer channels to record live to 2 tracks. There were also the arguments about "you can do all the crazy extra stuff in the recording" vs "we can't replicate that live unless we bring in extra people", and "nobody cares if half the stuff on the recording isn't in the live presentation because you just bludgeon them with volume" vs "I care".

Duuuuuuuuuuumb. If you really need the guitars to drop back in the studio mix for some reason, automation is a much easier solution but if it's all captured and put together properly it's unlikely to need it for every verse (I use quite a lot of creative automation but it's very subtle).

And the old "you can be sloppy live because everyone's drunk and it's loud" vs "I'd rather be consistent in both formats."

You can do that and your butt can and will absolutely be kicked by the other bands on the bill who aren't f'ing around.

Then I had to go into a Master's Degree lecture on what can and cannot be "fixed in the mix" and why, with examples.

Apparently being a hermit with a 4-track was one of the better decisions I ever made.

Any situation minus those bozos is a sound decision.

 

[Rand-O-Monium]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Excellent thread is excellent!!!

:fing2:

 

[aleclee]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

I recently attended a show that really underscored the importance of cutting through a mix.

A lot of the issues in cutting through a mix lie in the use of the word "cutting". Consequently, you have guys dialing in ice pick tone so they can "cut through". The problem isn't cutting through, it's working with the bandmates to carve up the frequency spectrum so everyone has their space.

BUT the sound man did a great job fitting it into the mix. Bass and drums were mixed cleanly and robustly, vocals fit right in the middle, and guitars were just right as a high mids spike.

Did I mention carving up the frequency spectrum?

Been fighting for a decent band mix for years. On a budget. From what I can tell, sans monitors, if anyone can hear themselves perfectly, then they're too loud in the mix. If everyone can hear themselves just enough to be able to stay together for the song, then the overall mix is just right.

I've only played in a couple bands that realized that less is more when it comes to stage volume. The first one trained me to dial in my amp's volume where I could hear myself just well enough to be able to play the parts. I know I'm doing a good job when a bandmate tells me to turn up.

Well, I am the only guitarist in the band, and I go direct, so the sound is an always 'in the mix' sound via IEMs. It makes it very easy to come up with room-filling guitar sounds. I was never satisfied with the end result before going direct- it sounded great at home but never as good at the gig. Now I don't have that problem.

IEMs rock. While a lot of folks complain about loss of room sound, the ability to have a custom mix in your ear anywhere on stage more than makes up for it IMO.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Another thing to note is that the monitor mix is never going to sound as good as the FOH. If you have a wireless pack you can always step down for a bit to satisfy your curiosity. Audience reactions and any footage with decent sound can reveal a fair bit.

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

To clarify my points, when I say "cutting through", it means that my sound comes through to my ears clearly enough that I don't have to play too loudly to hear my parts in the mix. My tone still sits in the mix perfectly, and blends well in its own space with the other instruments, but I have enough of my tone so that I don't have to play too hard or keep my guitar volume on 10 all the time, which severely limits my ability to use dynamics. When I cut through the mix, I can play with finesse, but if I don't then my sound out front is always brash.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: The importance of cutting through a mix

Yeah I think if we replace the term 'cutting through' with 'sitting in'

Indeed. Since I started using 2 x 10 cabinets, I find I can be 'present' without being stupidly loud. If I'm the only guitarist, I can sit 'in' the sound and create the illusion of the rhythm section being 'bigger'. I know a lot of guys enjoy the bigger 'thump' provided by 4 x 12 cabs and sealed-back cabs, but in my experience, that big low end doesn't translate in a PA mix or recording, and may well mess with the clarity of the lower sounds such as bass, drums and probably parts of some keyboard sounds.