The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

[spidermissile]

Hey all:
Like so many of you, I'm sure, despite years of Fenders, Gibsons, PRS, and many tweaks of technique (tweakneaks...copyright, 2014), I have NEVER owned a neck Pup I cared to use. Once in a while I find a really low output old strat that sounds chimey and useable. Right now I have about 10 six -strings... 2 LPs, 3 PRS (MCCarty, 25th Singlecut w/ 57/08s, '93 EG Bolt-on, 2 strats (one with Kinman Woodstock, one MIM with high output singlecoils), 2 Danos with the fabulous lipsticks, and I've done a fair amount of PuP swaps.
Granted, even as a bassist, I cling to a bridge PuP or sweetspot like grim death, esp. on fretless, for the growl. But I see (a few) payers just getting awesome life out of neck PuPs...Blackmore comes to mind...Gilmour...Pagey used them a bit, right? Geez, I oughta' know.
I just ordered five new Duncans for two PRS axes...a Custom Custom for the bridge of my McCarty & a WHOLE LOTTA HUMBUCKER NECK for the neck. For my prized '93 EG bolt on (an Alder H-S-H with rosewood board and trem), I ordered a JB for the bridge, a LITTLE '59 NECK for the middle, and a PEARLY GATES NECK for the neck.
My hopes here are to "vintagize" my typically crisp PRS axes a bit, both to cover an important Tom Petty Tribute series in the Fall, but also hopefully just to make them a bit more short-scale-ish, (a bit looser in the mids/ lows) as I love Lesters, but HATE tuning issues with the nut. I often have to leave Lesters in the case and go for the reliability of PRS under the lights...
Now, these PuPs are goin' in, anyway, but I gotta' ask myself- and other experienced players...will some of us NEVER be satisfied with what we hear as a "muddy" sound from the neck? I have always called it a "wood flute" tone...just mellow, too bassy, which turns to FUZZZZZ when driven. Jesus, I hate fuzz...hate the "Woman Tone." ( I love overdrive that has rich harmonic content), and I do love the classic 50s tone of both LP or McCarty PuPs in parallel, I dig the crisp scoop...Brian Setzer, Pagey stuff. But alone? Hell, I even still hate my Duncan Jazz in the neck of a friggin' BRIGHT Les Paul of all mahogany...can't figure why I can't dig it. The Jazz is so loved by others, as it's supposed to fix this issue.
I know some crappy, hacky- guitarists who cling to neck PuPs because they sound shrill and naked/ awful if any treble is present. But there are too many great players who get the goods from the neck position, wide aperture or single... I mean, you're digging all this harmonic bliss, and you do a double-take, and say ***K me, he's on the NECK?
Any relevant thoughts/ experience/ suggestiions? I know it's a broad issue, but if you know a treasure map to the mojo of the neck position, throw it my way, please.
-Thanks

 

[9unslin9er]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

It's really all in how you voice your playing and set your amp/interface.

For a long time, I did the single pickup thing too. But, I found I'm the type of player who needs two drastically different tones to keep me from being bored.

I tend to like my neck and bridge positions to be quite different from each other.

I like my neck pickup to be as bright as possible to use for soloing and my bridge to be tight and chunky for rhythm.

After playing through pretty much EVERY neck pickup available from Seymour Duncan, I've pretty much narrowed my favorites to the '59 for 22 fret guitars and Classic Stack Plus for 24 fretters.

I absolutely hate mid heavy pickups in the neck position.

I've also run the gamut of pickups from DiMarzio (Pro Track, Chopper, HS-3, YJM, SDS-1, PAF Pro, Air Classic, Air Norton, Evolution) and just can't stand anything that makes the neck position any thicker than it already is.

 

[spidermissile]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

Yeah, think you're on to something about amp interface issues...I am almost superstitious about set and forget w/ amps...If I was willing to tweak the tone knobs more, i might get some more useable neck tones, but I gotta' walk over to the amp all the time! Waaaa. Also, agree in that while as a bassist, I am a SLAVE to the neck PuP for growl, they are almost always high output, midrangey beasts that cancel out fret or board noise, and thicken up my sound (super low action). So it's not as if I just like bright neck tones on a bass. The solidity must be there, of course. As to guitars, now, I kinda' hate my Hot rails (sittin' in a box) b/c it is just midrange to me, no character, much like my Invader, which is loud, but seems at present to lack interesting resonant peaks, so is dull. Good for lots of gain/ processing, I suppose, but, yeah, midrange overkill is KILL...it kills musicality.
Did I mention I have a set of Duncan Antiquity '59s? Hey, they are really great, and the middle position is 50s bliss, but damned if I am less than thrilled with the neck alone...despite their percieved low output. Still a bit muddy to me, and I avoid it's use, alone. But the stock Duncan '59 is of interest to me, so this is one vote that pushes me in that direction. BTW, I got overwhelming good opinions on the Whole Lotta' Humbucker and Pearly Gates Neck PuPs here and elsewhere which is why I chose them, but the proof is still awaiting install.
-Thanks.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

Welcome to the forum. I have to ask what is the sound in your head for your perfect sound from a neck pup? I read that you said you dig the crisp scoop but you dislike the Jazz.

 

[CTN]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

I just hate mid scooped neck pickups. The stock '59 and Jazz fall into that category. Do a mod that gives them more mids and it suddenly turns from a boomy or hollow whooping sound into a rich, warm, articulate, flutey (in a good way) pickup that is a joy to play with. The high end is extremely important for me too. Hate neck pickups that are too dark or warm. I don't have a ton of experience with Duncan neck pickups though

 

[9unslin9er]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

The PRS EG is a strat style guitar isn't it?

When you change those pups, Make sure you take a look at your Volume pots. If that thing is running 250k, it'll kill the tone on your humbuckers. Changing to 500k is a must for clarity.

And yes, do yourself a favor and buy one of those cheap multi-effect rigs. Line 6 Pod, Vox Tonelab, Boss GT through a good set of monitors or a PA and familiarize yourself with how different amp models react to your pickups.

I love cranking my JB equipped guitars through Marshall style amps with thick mid range, but I can't stand them through Mesa Boogies.

The reverse is true with my EMG 81 guitars.

 

[spidermissile]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

Great question. Drawing a blank...OK, 1st idea...sometimes you hear Gilmour getting the wood out of a neck PuP, p-90 or strat-type...but there's nice upper harmonic content, you know, say like with Alex Lifeson, where there's shimmer and unexpected overtones that come in and out with short bits of feedback...but not the type of rumbly feedback we typically associate with fuzzy neck sounds. As to clean neck tones, I do believe in "It might get loud," Pagey gives us a great demo of "Ramble On," and he's switching to the neck for clean, then back to the bridge for driven sound, using different volume levels on the Lester. Brilliant, woody, but still articulate neck tones. A NICE clean, really not too thick at all. Same amp settings. How's that?
Thanks.

 

[spidermissile]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

Hmmm. let me know if you know what mods to try. At least i have a freind who's a great electronics guy. We could pull the Jazz and tinker with it.
Thanks.

 

[spidermissile]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

9unslin9er; THANKS for the reminder about pots on the EG...yeah, we'll be looking at that for sure. Now it is and always has been a H-S-H configuration. BTW, that bridge PuP, the original, is a beast...thick, and it had some really surprising rich upper harmonics...changed a lot as it's aged...at first, the upper mids almost HURT. then it mellowed into a shimmer. Now, they're harder to come by...my hearing is still OK! Interesting to see how some PuPs age.

 

[9unslin9er]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

Oh, and don't forget, a lot of those vintage tones, like Led Zeppelin 1 come from tons of studio editing. Multiple amps. multiple guitars per track.

For the longest time, I thought "Good Times Bad Times" was played with a Les Paul. Until I found out it was a Telecaster.

Same for Guns N' Roses, I always thought Slash just played his guitar through a Marshall, until I realized all his cleans were through a Roland Jazz Chorus or a Fender amp.

 

[JHN]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

I might have said it many years ago,but the only pair that I can dial in a tone for the bridge pickup knowing that the neck pickup will be as good,is the Jazz set.

 

[spidermissile]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

9unslin9er: Super important point! I use a Marshall 1983 JCM 800 50w with a matching super lead 2x12 cab, and pair it with a Fender Hot Rod DE Ville 2x12 60 w, with it's almost too-heavy resonance...usually the Fender is the clean, the marshall is dirty. Sometimes I reverse it. It seems The Reverend used multiple amps from the beginning...how else you gonna' explain that clarity? Yes, Page and the Tele thing. Last I heard, he played a strat on Stairway solo...or was it a tele... Anyway, i'm all about at least two amps an every track I record...if I do it with just one, it's usually to force myself to adapt to limitation.
Good call

 

[Shadow78]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

Hey man,

I've had the exact same problem. I can't stand muddy neck pickups. I've never liked the 'woman tone' either. I've had so many conversations with so many pickup makers and guitar companies searching for that elusive, alive neck tone. I've always found, that a lot of neck position humbuckers have the mids dipped out and it makes them a little more polite and smoother. I like the exact opposite. I like a warm, but bright, woody humbucker that actually has mids in it, which seems to open it up to my ears...The only way I could describe it is 'stratty'. Gilmour has always used single coils...I have his EMG signature set that he still uses from time to time, although he has gone back to his older strats now. I've spoken to Suhr and the guys at Duncan even EMG and Dimarzio and it seems like that sound isn't a popular request for the most part, at least in humbuckers. I've liked neck pickups that have some mids in them with a rounder, more tubular bass response and enough high end to cut through. It gives it an open, stratty quality. I love that myself. Some PAF's have that wind...I've been recommended the Seth Lover model in a previous post I did. I also love the BKP Nailbomb set, especially the neck humbucker. It's like that. From what my ears tell me, the Pearly Gates neck has that throaty quality to it too...I've had to look for humbuckers with more mids in it, rather than scooped out like the Jazz or '59...which sound a bit too muffled in a Les Paul to me for instance, but come alive in say a PRS or Strat, which I have. I have a '59 in the neck of a fender strat and it's so much more alive...I just wish it had a little more mids in it. Again, that's my ears though. I've also had to admit to myself that I like a more single coil sound anyways. I feel your frustration!

 

[AlexR]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

If you love the bridge tone only and find the neck muddy, then I'm pretty certain you've set up the eq on your amp to suit the bridge. The better way to do it is to tweak your amp until the neck sound great, then adjust the bridge tone knob to suit.

 

[TimmyPage]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

There are three things I can think of: First is making a distinct list of the players you enjoy, and where their neck pickup sounds good. Try to research the kind of gear they'd be using, maybe something bright and middier like the Seth would be more in your range if you generally prefer classic rock and the sort.

2. Back off the gain, and turn up the amp. You'll still get a lot of the same drive and thump, but without a lot of the wooliness. Most classic albums use significantly lower gain than you might think.

3. Sort your playing out. I used to feel exactly the same way as you, then I moved over to playing jazz exclusively for about 5 years. What really changed is how I worked on my articulation, just using clean amps and a single setting for years, using only my pick attack and my fingers to change my sound. Now that I've come back to rock playing, I find that suddenly playing on the neck pickup is so easy, and I feel like theres so much more I'm able to coax from it, just through pick angle, through where I'm picking on the string etc.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

At least for the humbucking/Gibson types, I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but I've noticed that several big names out there that get good neck tones tend to have the neck pickup sunk at or below the pickup ring. Here's a few of Jimmy Page, but I've seen several others do this as well. Look how low and away from the strings the neck pickup is.

 

[Demanic]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

I've heard it recommended to use something with an A4 in the neck position as it flattens out the eq response and brings out more of the natural sound of the wood. I'm soon to try doing so with a Duncan Distortion that I have in the neck of my Ibanez. I'll let you know how it turns out.

 

[spidermissile]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

Thanks to all so far...each reply has had useful suggestions, some seemingly obvious but often avoided, others a bit more novel. Great ideas.
I mean, it can't be impossible. Except for shadow 78: Murphy's law suggests that since you've made so many serious inquiries and looked far and wide...since it's such a rational thing to care about...that you won't find an answer. Just you. Sorry, that's the way the universe works. Sucks, no?
Seriously, we do feel the same pain.
I wonder about Fralin, in general...His split-coil Jazz bass PuPs and his standard P (not overwound ) are just stupendous, and reliably great, set after set. Love talking to him and whoever picks up the phone there...got great, honest info. (Love Duncan also, BTW...it would be a gas if they weren't so big that we wouldn't occasionally have Seymour answer the phone!). But his people seem to care, and offer a lot of suggestions. Anyway, Fralin bass pickups have this kind of amazing way of getting the vintage Fender thing nailed so well, with such delicacy...yet still with the focus you almost always miss with real Fenders. I really should look into his Humbuckers...maybe there's a neck model there. Of course, I gotta' see how the PG neck and Whole Lotta' Humbucker neck do, first! One thing I LOVE about Duncan-as I'm sure we all do, is the size of their lineup. If we like their general philosophy, there's so much to choose from. I also have to look at DiMarzio. I finally got a "Model J" set for one fretless J bass build...advertised as having very strong lows. Split coil. They are SO VERY heavy on the lows, yet, as advertised, they're still musical...quite a feat, I think. There's definitely some artistry there, and I've heard raves about his Area J split-coils, as being fantastic split-coil versions of a most desireable vintage tone, yet they're dirt cheap when compared to Fralin, Delano, etc... But I digress. We're talkin' Duncan here. I need about a thousand bucks and good soldering technique, and constant swapping of say 20 PuPs for six months.
And maybe as suggested here by somebody, I should...play a little. Time to get back to that now!
Thanks.
-Thanks...any more ideas are always welcome.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

I thought you were just talking about lead guitar pups not bass pups as well?

 

[SJ318]

Re: The NECK PICKUP PROBLEM!

Well,
I was gonna ask in a new thread, maybe I'll try it here. I have a jazz neck pup and a neck position tele that needs a pup. What about an A2 in place of the A5 the jazz comes with? As the jazz is so scooped but very highendie ( highendie.........copyright 2014), maybe the A2 would still let the jazz keep much of it's high end character but bump up the mids?
Please tell me it could be so. If any of you veteran forum folks think it is worth a go, I have a spare A2 mag.
I just can't find a loud enough single coil that after 6k or so doesn't lose it's sparkle! Maybe the A2 would calm the boominess of the A5 in the jazz.
Steve B