Mr. B
New member
http://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/humbuckers/paf-59-bridge
Dimarzio's new take on a vintage 59 Paf. Interesting...
Dimarzio's new take on a vintage 59 Paf. Interesting...
The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
- Thread starter Mr. B
- Start date
Lewguitar
New member
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
They use Alnico 5. Interesting. Some were Alnico 5 so it's a valid choice.
But most 59's, according to Tom Holmes who found Gibson's purchase orders for magnets from 1959, used Alnico 4.
I prefer Alnico 5 so I can see why Duncan and Dimarzio both chose Alnico 5 for their 59 pickups....although Alnico 4 does have a cool sound.
They use Alnico 5. Interesting. Some were Alnico 5 so it's a valid choice.
But most 59's, according to Tom Holmes who found Gibson's purchase orders for magnets from 1959, used Alnico 4.
I prefer Alnico 5 so I can see why Duncan and Dimarzio both chose Alnico 5 for their 59 pickups....although Alnico 4 does have a cool sound.
Joey Voltage
New member
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
Probably because it might overlap with their PAF master a little too much if they used an alIV
Probably because it might overlap with their PAF master a little too much if they used an alIV
OsvyRock
New member
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
Something tells me he studied Seymour Duncan's take + improved on the PAF 36th Anniversary Design + Degaussed the Magnet to eliminate string pull and output.
Now imagine if the magnet is a roughcast one!
While interesting, I believe he's a little late to the game. I'm happy with my Seymour Duncan 59'!
Something tells me he studied Seymour Duncan's take + improved on the PAF 36th Anniversary Design + Degaussed the Magnet to eliminate string pull and output.
Now imagine if the magnet is a roughcast one!
While interesting, I believe he's a little late to the game. I'm happy with my Seymour Duncan 59'!
gregory
New member
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
"[...] the legendary sound and dynamics of the original “Patent Applied For” pickups. Utilizing Larry DiMarzio’s 1959 Cherry Sunburst Les Paul® for reference, DiMarzio used the same materials as 1959, gifted ears, and decades of winding experience [...]"
"We re-engineered the PAF® using our patented technology and Larry DiMarzio’s own 1959 cherry sunburst Gibson® Les Paul® as the reference. Larry’s Gibson® Les Paul® has a uniquely amazing sound and it’s not only due to the pickups — it’s the total fusion of many elements of the guitar itself."
Why a second bite at the apple?
"[...] the legendary sound and dynamics of the original “Patent Applied For” pickups. Utilizing Larry DiMarzio’s 1959 Cherry Sunburst Les Paul® for reference, DiMarzio used the same materials as 1959, gifted ears, and decades of winding experience [...]"
"We re-engineered the PAF® using our patented technology and Larry DiMarzio’s own 1959 cherry sunburst Gibson® Les Paul® as the reference. Larry’s Gibson® Les Paul® has a uniquely amazing sound and it’s not only due to the pickups — it’s the total fusion of many elements of the guitar itself."
Why a second bite at the apple?
Teleplayer
Active member
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
I am just guessing that these may be a middle ground between the PAF master (very bright) and 36th PAF (boosted mids).
I am just guessing that these may be a middle ground between the PAF master (very bright) and 36th PAF (boosted mids).
LtKojak
New member
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
The only "interesting" thing here is that they're "un-dipped", which might be DMZ speak meaning un-potted. However, the verbatim also says that they're "scatterwound"... and that's as "un-PAF-like" as it gets.
Also, their DC-readings are way too high for "PAF" as we know'em... unless they're using AWG#42.5 wire... which might be faulty AWG#42 so they got a very big shipment for cents on the dollar?
To close the argument: DMZ also trademaked the "PAF" acronym, so they can make anything and lie through their teeth calling it "PAF" without breaking the law and ever being liable. Legal fraud at its best. Also note the trademark symbol on the "Double Cream" verbatim. Ring a bell, anyone?
That's the world we live in. Get used to it!
The only "interesting" thing here is that they're "un-dipped", which might be DMZ speak meaning un-potted. However, the verbatim also says that they're "scatterwound"... and that's as "un-PAF-like" as it gets.
Also, their DC-readings are way too high for "PAF" as we know'em... unless they're using AWG#42.5 wire... which might be faulty AWG#42 so they got a very big shipment for cents on the dollar?
To close the argument: DMZ also trademaked the "PAF" acronym, so they can make anything and lie through their teeth calling it "PAF" without breaking the law and ever being liable. Legal fraud at its best. Also note the trademark symbol on the "Double Cream" verbatim. Ring a bell, anyone?
That's the world we live in. Get used to it!
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blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
A4 '59's would be interesting, as they would be with RC UOA5's. Since Duncan has created new models by changing magnets (Jazz/A2P and the Custom series) maybe they ought to do this with '59's? There's been a number of members who've had issues with the sometimes boomy low ends of '59N's, and '59B's sometimes being overly bright & thin.
A4 '59's would be interesting, as they would be with RC UOA5's. Since Duncan has created new models by changing magnets (Jazz/A2P and the Custom series) maybe they ought to do this with '59's? There's been a number of members who've had issues with the sometimes boomy low ends of '59N's, and '59B's sometimes being overly bright & thin.
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
I find what happens with production pickups that the materials used are quite regular......and given the very precise and repeatable nature of current manufacturing the specs differ wildly from the very variable nature of vintage making. Thus to approach part of the vintage tone most desired, certain specs end up way off to make the compromise you want.
The PAF seems to have a low K reading, but yet has more body than what you'd expect, as well as a biting top-end that is not brittle. Without the right spec wire and coating and the correct magnet composition you can't get all of these in the one pickup. So you try for a bit of the top end and some of the mids nature. But you have to do things like specifically degaussing magnets, and winding to a K spec right on the top-end to roll off some of the treble.
Look at a lot of the Duncan Ant sets......way higher K readings than what the originals had, and often different mag types too and often degaussed as well.
To be fair, the target market for the two D's are not people who want the most accurate clone either tonally or aesthetically. What generally is wanted is something that gets most of the way there - at an affordable price, and additionally is not as fickle or as sonically limited as a clone.
The only "interesting" thing here is that they're "un-dipped", which might be DMZ speak meaning un-potted. However, the verbatim also says that they're "scatterwound"... and that's as "un-PAF-like" as it gets.
Also, their DC-readings are way too high for "PAF" as we know'em... unless they're using AWG#42.5 wire... which might be faulty AWG#42 so they got a very big shipment for cents on the dollar?
I find what happens with production pickups that the materials used are quite regular......and given the very precise and repeatable nature of current manufacturing the specs differ wildly from the very variable nature of vintage making. Thus to approach part of the vintage tone most desired, certain specs end up way off to make the compromise you want.
The PAF seems to have a low K reading, but yet has more body than what you'd expect, as well as a biting top-end that is not brittle. Without the right spec wire and coating and the correct magnet composition you can't get all of these in the one pickup. So you try for a bit of the top end and some of the mids nature. But you have to do things like specifically degaussing magnets, and winding to a K spec right on the top-end to roll off some of the treble.
Look at a lot of the Duncan Ant sets......way higher K readings than what the originals had, and often different mag types too and often degaussed as well.
To be fair, the target market for the two D's are not people who want the most accurate clone either tonally or aesthetically. What generally is wanted is something that gets most of the way there - at an affordable price, and additionally is not as fickle or as sonically limited as a clone.
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The JEM Ghost
New member
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
Seems like there is no cloth tape used to protect the coils, but some other kind of tape... I've seen that on other pictures of DiMarzio humbuckers (new ones, so not retaped by the owner), like here: https://www.bax-shop.nl/gitaar-elementen/dimarzio-dp103bk-paf-element-zwart
Does anyone know if this is the new way DiMarzio tapes their humbuckers?? If it is I don't like it...
Seems like there is no cloth tape used to protect the coils, but some other kind of tape... I've seen that on other pictures of DiMarzio humbuckers (new ones, so not retaped by the owner), like here: https://www.bax-shop.nl/gitaar-elementen/dimarzio-dp103bk-paf-element-zwart
Does anyone know if this is the new way DiMarzio tapes their humbuckers?? If it is I don't like it...
LtKojak
New member
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
HTH,
Well, that's a cellulose-based tape, which is vintage spec correct for bobbins. The cloth tape is modern, and used to protect the assembly as a whole.
HTH,
gregory
New member
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
"We’ve done the research and seen all the mythology around pickups made with NOS wire, unoriented magnets, butyrate bobbins, vintage alloys, unbalanced coils, et al. We prefer to focus on results rather than on replicas. The PAF® Master Neck Model uses several of our patented ideas to create a pickup that pays tribute to the original sound without imitating it. Instead of “accidentally” unbalancing the coils, we’ve tuned them to different frequencies to get the same effect without compromising hum-cancellation."
http://www.dimarzio.com/node/8199
I guess they got it wrong here too?
"We’ve done the research and seen all the mythology around pickups made with NOS wire, unoriented magnets, butyrate bobbins, vintage alloys, unbalanced coils, et al. We prefer to focus on results rather than on replicas. The PAF® Master Neck Model uses several of our patented ideas to create a pickup that pays tribute to the original sound without imitating it. Instead of “accidentally” unbalancing the coils, we’ve tuned them to different frequencies to get the same effect without compromising hum-cancellation."
http://www.dimarzio.com/node/8199
I guess they got it wrong here too?
The JEM Ghost
New member
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
Thanks for the reply Kojak! So does DiMarzio only uses that cellulose tape on their "vintage models" like this new PAF 59 and the PAF 36th Anniversary? (on their website the 36th shows cloth tape, but the picture in the link that I provided in my earlier post shows cellular tape).
Thanks in advance for any replies!
Thanks for the reply Kojak! So does DiMarzio only uses that cellulose tape on their "vintage models" like this new PAF 59 and the PAF 36th Anniversary? (on their website the 36th shows cloth tape, but the picture in the link that I provided in my earlier post shows cellular tape).
Thanks in advance for any replies!
LtKojak
New member
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
For the record, keeping the TPL and tension like in the original Seth Lover recipe, the 7.5K will sound great in the neck position, but IME, too bright and "wimpy" in the bridge. That's why when I wind for myself and my customers I use a different magnet, tension and TPL for the bridge p'up. And sometimes even different alloys for both screws and slugs for the bridge than in the neck p'up. So no, I'm NOT a "PAF purist", putting the same p'up in both positions. There's a system behind the madness!
HTH,
Well, considering that the recipe included in the actual granted Seth Lover PAF patent, which really is the "infamous" 5,000 turns per bobbin, using perfect on-spec #42 AWG plain enamel wire, it'll read 7.5K@68F°. If you add 10% more wire to compensate for the bridge position, it'll read 8.25K. But, tecnically speaking, the latter's NOT a "PAF" anymore, but an "overwound" p'up.
For the record, keeping the TPL and tension like in the original Seth Lover recipe, the 7.5K will sound great in the neck position, but IME, too bright and "wimpy" in the bridge. That's why when I wind for myself and my customers I use a different magnet, tension and TPL for the bridge p'up. And sometimes even different alloys for both screws and slugs for the bridge than in the neck p'up. So no, I'm NOT a "PAF purist", putting the same p'up in both positions. There's a system behind the madness!
HTH,
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
sure, i know the 5k and that it came from the 10k of a p90 but ive seen and im sure you have too, that many pafs were significantly over 7.5k. what the design was is nice and all, but i dont hear the design. i hear the pups in guitars through amps
sure, i know the 5k and that it came from the 10k of a p90 but ive seen and im sure you have too, that many pafs were significantly over 7.5k. what the design was is nice and all, but i dont hear the design. i hear the pups in guitars through amps
LtKojak
New member
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
HTH,
Yes, and that's so because of TWO reasons: 1. the winding machines didn't have a counter, so they were wound by eyeballing. 2. IME and some other winders that we share info on PAFs, the eyeballing actually worked pretty well, as the vast majority didn't go over 5% of turns, being the average +/- 2%, ergo, the biggest variable was the wire itself, being more frequently out-of-spec than on-spec. At that time, wire was wire was wire. The max-nom and min-nom was not spec'ed, and Gibson got wire from several different sources, hence the DC readings' discrepancies.
HTH,
Re: The New Dimarzio Paf 59 Set...
I don't know, low to mid 8's is in the ballpark for PAF's. Seth Lover's are low 8's for the bridge position and they are supposed to be accurate. The Dimarzios are based on Larry's 59 LP pickups which means they sound like 59 LP pickups which are PAF's correct? When people talk "PAF's" they talk sound/tone not construction methods, saying it is a lie to call these pickups PAF's is rediculous if they deliver the tone people want/associate with the term.I am no expert just a 50 year old guy who has played more than a few old 59LP's and 335's as well as countless other guitar/pickup combos, my experience does not correlate with your rant.
The only "interesting" thing here is that they're "un-dipped", which might be DMZ speak meaning un-potted. However, the verbatim also says that they're "scatterwound"... and that's as "un-PAF-like" as it gets.
Also, their DC-readings are way too high for "PAF" as we know'em... unless they're using AWG#42.5 wire... which might be faulty AWG#42 so they got a very big shipment for cents on the dollar?
To close the argument: DMZ also trademaked the "PAF" acronym, so they can make anything and lie through their teeth calling it "PAF" without breaking the law and ever being liable. Legal fraud at its best. Also note the trademark symbol on the "Double Cream" verbatim. Ring a bell, anyone?
That's the world we live in. Get used to it!
I don't know, low to mid 8's is in the ballpark for PAF's. Seth Lover's are low 8's for the bridge position and they are supposed to be accurate. The Dimarzios are based on Larry's 59 LP pickups which means they sound like 59 LP pickups which are PAF's correct? When people talk "PAF's" they talk sound/tone not construction methods, saying it is a lie to call these pickups PAF's is rediculous if they deliver the tone people want/associate with the term.I am no expert just a 50 year old guy who has played more than a few old 59LP's and 335's as well as countless other guitar/pickup combos, my experience does not correlate with your rant.
