Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

[Gtrjunior]

Recently I had the pcb board removed from my 2012 Les Paul. I have a Super Distortion bridge and a PAF 36th anniversary neck. I took it to a professional shop to have the work done.
The tech told me he wired it 50’s style with a treble bleed. Push/Pull tone knobs for coil split.
I am noticing a couple of things that I don’t like....maybe it’s me, maybe there is a mistake in the wiring. I don’t know.
1) when I roll the volume knob(s) back the tone becomes thin and almost nasally sounding...like an out of phase type sound, but not quite.
2) if I roll the neck pup volume off and am playing the bridge pickup, I notice that the bridge pup sounds just slightly less full. When I roll the neck volume back up it become fuller again. I’m pretty sure this is only something I would notice. It’s a very small change in tone but a change nonetheless.

Would removing he treble bleed help to thicken it up a bit? I know the 50’s wiring is supposed to retain high end as you roll off.

Would modern wiring fix the interaction between the pickups that I’m experiencing when one knob is rolled off?

If I’m not mistaken, Gibson factory wiring is the modern style with no treble bleed....no? I always liked how the guitar sounded and operated before the pcb removal?
Maybe I should do modern wiring with a treble bleed?

What do you guys think might be going on?
Here are some pics...of there is an issue maybe you guys can spot it. I’m a newbie when it comes to all of this wiring so...

 

[AlexR]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

Treble bleed is the worst of all worlds IME. It artificially 'boosts' treble as you roll down......as in it keeps the same treble content as on 10 but all other frequencies drop off.

I'd ditch the TB, as 50's wiring will keep it from turning dark as you roll back anyhow.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

I never understood the love for the treble bleed thing, anyway. To me, it doesn't make anything better.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

Do you think that the “thinness” I’m hearing is due to the treble frequencies not rolling off while other frequencies are rolling off?

 

[gregory]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

I love treble bleeds but it's a matter of knowing when and how to use them. However, they work better when a resistor is placed in parallel with the cap.

If they aren't your cup of tea but you still want to avoid having your highs die faster than the overall volume, Alex's advice of just going '50s-style is the way to go.

 

[gregory]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

Do you think that the “thinness” I’m hearing is due to the treble frequencies not rolling off while other frequencies are rolling off?

Yes, the treble bleed is causing the lion's share of the problem.

However, the tech decided to use a treble bleed *with* '50s wiring!?! That seems like some serious overkill.

:facepalm:

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

Yes, the treble bleed is causing the lion's share of the problem.

However, the tech decided to use a treble bleed *with* '50s wiring!?! That seems like some serious overkill.

:facepalm:

In the above pictures, I believe the little blue resistor is the treble bleed.
Is it just a matter of snipping it off and it’s done? Or is there anything else that needs to be done.


Also...I’ll take responsibility for the treble bleed being on there with 50’s wiring...I didn’t know better and I told him to do it.

 

[gregory]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

The blue elements are capacitors. Yes, you can clip them off and to be done with it; otherwise I'd de-solder.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

The blue elements are capacitors. Yes, you can clip them off and to be done with it; otherwise I'd de-solder.

Cool....any thoughts on why the bridge pup seems to have slightly less output when the neck pup is rolled off? Is that just the interaction quality of 50’s wiring?

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

I never understood the love for the treble bleed thing, anyway. To me, it doesn't make anything better.

I remember having it in a guitar I had years ago. Ever since I’ve always “thought” it was a good thing. Maybe it’s time I reevaluate.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

Well your values are important. If you use a giant 1nf cap only it's going to be ice pick ville. 100pf is very moderate, 200pf is substantial, and 300pf is about as bright with the volume rolled back as on 10.

I 3rd that 50s on its own is plenty.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

Well your values are important. If you use a giant 1nf cap only it's going to be ice pick ville. 100pf is very moderate, 200pf is substantial, and 300pf is about as bright with the volume rolled back as on 10.

In the pics above it says 102K on the cap.
???

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

Yea hmm I don't know what value that is.

 

[gregory]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

1 nF

or

.001 uF

(whichever you're more comfortable with; they are the same thing)

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

1 nF

or

.001 uF

(whichever you're more comfortable with; they are the same thing)

So that’s considered a large value then?

 

[gregory]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

Yes.

I like 560pF and 300k per the DiMarzio recommendation.

...but if it's not your thing, it's not your thing.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

It looks like (according to the pics), that the cap is just soldered between the middle and outer lugs if the pots?
What I think I’ll do is snip them off and see how it sounds. If I’m not digging it I’ll try a smaller value.

 

[gregory]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

That's the fastest way to find out.

Are your volume pots linear or audio taper? I find '50s with an audio taper to be pretty annoying because the control can be really touchy between 8-10. The difference isn't tonal, it's just in the response of the control.

 

[gregory]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

2) if I roll the neck pup volume off and am playing the bridge pickup, I notice that the bridge pup sounds just slightly less full. When I roll the neck volume back up it become fuller again. I’m pretty sure this is only something I would notice. It’s a very small change in tone but a change nonetheless.

I hope you can get this part straightened out, as well. Maybe if you pull the switch out and take some photos it might reveal the problem.

I do see possible evidence of a ground loop, however.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thin sounding when I roll the volume back...

That's the fastest way to find out.

Are your volume pots linear or audio taper? I find '50s with an audio taper to be pretty annoying because the control can be really touchy between 8-10. The difference isn't tonal, it's just in the response of the control.

They are audio taper. I went through 3 sets until I found the right ones.
I started with 500k audio taper...too bright and I wasn’t liking the taper. They were from RS guitarworks, so I was surprised that I didn’t like them. They have a great reputation.
Then I went with Gibson 300k linear and hated them.
Then I went with with guitarelectronics.com 250k audio taper and liked them a lot. That’s what’s in there now.
For me, I like to be able to just nudge the volume down a bit to control any feedback on high gain settings. This way, the sound is still gainy but but I’m not feeding back during moments of silence.